So I've done the search thing and everyone says to get the speed bleeders and that's all well and good but doesn't really apply to the problem I'm having; besides - they are gone for over a week so getting the speed bleeders in a normal amount of time is out of the question.
I was able to remove the bleeder valve and use a large syringe and silicone tubing to vacum the Dot 4 brake fluid down to the right side caliper while making sure to keep the reservoir full but I'm still not getting any resistance at the lever or action on the brakes. It's now too hot to work in the garage so I will get at it again in the morning.
I've been bikeless for over a week because I had a buyer for my Ness handlebars so I began changing the bars out then found I needed a longer brake line that took almost a week to get made locally and of course my other bike is down for re-painting. It would all be okay except the buyer backed out. I would have waited to do this job once I had the KP back on the road if I didn't have a committed buyer. That kind of thing really bothers me. I mean I could have justified the down time if I knew the buyer was getting her new bars in a timely manner but she backed out after I had already removed them. End vent/rant.
So anyone have any ideas, besides the speed bleeders which are not available right now, to get this thing bled and on the road?
I'm heading out for the day but will check back later. Thanks in advance! Signed: One frustrated Boomer Bob.
BBob I was recently doing some front brake work on a little Yamaha Majesty scooter that I picked up, and was having all sorts of problems trying to get a firm lever once I'd put it back together.
I have always done my own work but this thing was driving me crazy as I just couldn't get it to bleed.
What I end up doing was removing the bleeder nipple on the caliper and using a little bit of plumbers tape to seal the thread before refitting it. Then I filled a large syringe with brake fluid and fitted a bit of clear plastic pipe onto the end and onto the bleeder nipple, before pumping the fresh fluid back through the caliper and up into the master cylinder and closing the bleeder before removing the syringe.
Mate it worked a treat and gave me a nearly fully firm lever straight away.
I then lt it sit for an hour or so before bleeding it as normal, but didn't get much air out so it worked pretty well.
Another little trick that has served me well over the years whenever I've undertaken brake work is to tie the lever back to the grip with a strip of cloth and let it sit overnight. Undo it in the morning and you'll have a nice firm lever.
I recently had the same issue with my front brakes. Just bleed them the normal way and make a one person bleeder bottle. My issue was that once all the air was out, I still had a floppy brake lever. The solution was to just keep squeezing it for a few minutes. Squeeze, release, squeeze, release. It'll work. then you can bungy or zip tie the lever in the open position over night for an even better feeling. After doing my own brakes the pressure is better than factory or when the sop did them.
I've had great and terrible experiences in bleeding brakes on various bikes. Not sure what the cause of this variability is. Some "tricks" I have used in the past is to open the brake line starting at the reservoir outlet and make sure I have a hydraulically full system up to that point. Then I Attach the next hose and repeat the process in stages. As I go, I am pumping the brake lever and also tapping the various parts (lines, pumps, junction boxes, calipers, etc.) with the plastic end of a large screwdriver to try to break loose any air bubbles. I don't know if this process will work with an ABS system if that is present on your bike. Of course be ultra careful with any drips of brake fluid as many types will rapidly destroy paint on both the sheet metal as well as the frame. Good luck.
When I did my 4" peg extension getting the air out was not easy coz of all the extra hoses and connections .... Just keep adding and doing, it will be "fine"
turn bars to left. Cover the tank so you don't drip fluid on it. Don't forget lowers.
Now pull master cylinder cap off.
Very slow pull lever to handlebar grip and Tie it off to grip.
Go in house have a beer take wife to dinner. Now in morning untie grip. Let it up to normal position VERY slowly.
Now squeeze level NO more then 1/8". do it a couple times if you see little bubbles that will be the end of the air.
Put cover back on and your done.
air always goes to highest point
If you're going to replace your brake fluid. Suck out what you can from master cylinder. Now put in NEW start your bleeding. You can see the old fluid and new fluid color change.
Don't let master cylinder run dry
The only problem I've ever had was where the bleed screw was not the highest part of the caliper. Those are easier done with the caliper off of the vehicle but is still pretty straight forward.
By now it has sat overnight so a majority of any bubbles should have risen. Some will be in the top of the caliper so the first thing is to get that out properly with a hose over the bleed screw. Gently on the brakes and open the bleed valve until oil starts to come out then tighten without letting go of the brake lever so as not to suck any air back in. Once that is done squeeze overly hard on the brakes and hold if for minute to force the air out of the oil. Bubbles in the line should grow again and rise to the top in the master cylinder. Keep doing that until everything is firmed up on the first pull as it should be if everything is operating fine. Once had to tie it up tight for a few hours on a brand new line. I'm guessing something in the manufacturing process must have had the bubbles sticking to the sides of the line.
When it's tight, re-do the bleed screw on the caliper process and double check the reservoir.
Again; thank you all for your helpful advice but unfortunately no joy.
I was able to turn the bleeder screw 1/4 turn and vacuum the fluid down from the reservoir getting very few small bubbles.
While getting the new brake line made I turned the master cylinder upside down so the fluid wouldn't leak out from the banjo connector screw.
I'm wondering if the master cylinder lost its prime or simply went bad. I replaced the master cylinder on the KP a year or so ago and all I had to do was put it on, connect it to the banjo end on the brake line, and it pumped right up so I find this very strange.
I did check the service manual in case there was something different about these but again; no joy.
I had a hell of a time getting all the air out when I replaced the bars and added a longer line. I tried all the tricks, including a vacuum bleeder and still soft handle. I finally just did it old school. Hooked up a one man bleeder kit, pump lever slowly until firm, loosen bleeder, hold handle, tighten bleeder, repeat... Kept master full of fluid at all times. Did left first, then right and back to left. I ran at least 5 12oz bottles worth of fluid through it before the air was all gone. Once I knew all the old fluid was out. I would just pour it back in from the bleeder bottle.
I'm thinking the master cylinder went bad somehow. I'm getting bubbles in the master fluid reservoir when I pump the lever just like I did with the one that went bad on my KP. I could probably go through a 55 gal drum of brake fluid but when the cylinder gets a scratch that allows air in; it won't ever pump correctly so now I'm looking for a new master cylinder. This has really turned into a nightmare.
I may, since I have nothing but time now, find my old KP cyl and see if I can get anything from it to verify it's the cyl.
I did the same thing as you and turned the master upside down while I rounded up the new line parts. Had the same bubbles while pumping the handle. Took forever, but they did quit eventually. I couldn't tell you how many times I pumped that handle. Took me two evenings after work to get it right. Would pump till my hand would cramp, stop for a while and go back at it. Worst time I have ever had bleeding a line. Has been fine for over two weeks now. Now that I think of it, I probably put way more fluid than I said through the system.
Funny thing was. Bubbles stopped on the left, bunch on the right, then more on the left. They were so small and hard to see in the clear line after all the big ones passed.
Thanks much. I'll mess with it some more. I don't mind having an extra M/C around if it turns out this one is still good. Vic's have a reputation for the M/C going out or maybe they are just so fickle they act like they're bad when they really aren't.
Bob
if you turned the master cylinder upside down you might of gotten air in it.
With master cylinder it in its normal position and bars turned to left Just barely squeeze lever. No more then 1/8" that will release the air. Let lever go back to normal position. You might have to do this several times if you getting air bubbles.
Tap the caliper with a rubber hammer that will release the air bubbles and they will rise to the master cylinder even tap the T block.
Air will not stick to nothing but it can get trapped.
Thanks VJ but I did that already. Maybe I didn't do it enough. I ordered a good used M/C off ebay but will see if I can mess with this one some more. I've kinda lost patience with it for the time being though.
I will order some speed bleeders as well so once this is all ironed out I can easily change the fluid in the systems for both bikes.
I know your frustration, went through it all with my rear brake, had caliper rebuilt with brumby seals as Vic doesn't supply a rebuild kit.
Had my master cylinder professionally rebuild by a a specialist old school brake reserving workshop, still making air.
They said to ensure there's freeplay at the lever, meaning the mc piston can fully return and have freeplay, something to do with the compensating ports in mc.
Did all that.
Renewed all the copper washers at all the joins.
Dirty Dan sent me gratis his old rear caliper to substitute, thanks again Dan, but the air persisted..
In desperation I had a new braided brake line made up.
The man at Pirtek commented that my rear brake pressure switch wasn't very tight and was probably sucking in air through its thread!
No more air after I fitted the new brake line but I figure it was the brake light pressure switch sucking air.
Fronts use a more simple mechanical electrical switch off the lever though I think.
Try bleeding your mc with the line disconnected and your finger over the hole before reconnecting the line then bleed at the line connection.
Probably best to do it on the bench as brake fluid can strip paint.
Brake shop said my rear mc is Teflon lined so can't be honed as you would a normal one.
You could strip your mc down and clean everything with water then methylated spirits to displace the water and inspect it thoroughly for scores, as for rebuild kits they're probably not available as Vic rather sell you a complete unit. Or a new bike!
It sucks, literally, but a good specialist brake shop can match up brake seals with something else.
Good Luck, I know the frustration, yours is worse cos you can survive without a rear brake but not without fronts.
Thanks MBX. I think taking the unit off the bike and seeing if I can get it to pump fluid at the bench is a good idea. Could be sucking air anywhere and getting new copper washers is a good idea. The old fluid was pretty clear and I didn't see any contaminants but that doesn't mean there weren't any. Maybe a small piece of something found its way down into the pump. Taking it down to parade rest and cleaning it sounds like a reasonable idea.
I'd doubt that there will be anything wrong with your original master cylinder BBob, other than a heap of air in the system somewhere.
Did you try my suggestion with using a large syringe to pump the fluid from the caliper up to the M/C at all? I'd never done it until I'd encountered this scooter (they're evil things!) and it worked really well.
Another thing to try if you're working from the master cylinder end is to place a bunched up shop rag under the banjo bolt at the master cylinder, then slowly pump the lever a few times and then hold it in and crack the banjo bolt just as if it were a bleeder nipple.
Sometimes it is enough to get the master cylinder to start pumping fluid instead if air. Then bleed as normal.
I wish I lived near you as I'd love to have a go at this problem!
I'd doubt that there will be anything wrong with your original master cylinder BBob, other than a heap of air in the system somewhere.
Did you try my suggestion with using a large syringe to pump the fluid from the caliper up to the M/C at all? I'd never done it until I'd encountered this scooter (they're evil things!) and it worked really well.
Yes I did. I was able to 'suck' fluid down through the bleeder valve but not push it back up through it. Made me wonder if I don't already have speed bleeder on it. I know I bought some years ago but don't remember if it was for this bike.
Another thing to try if you're working from the master cylinder end is to place a bunched up shop rag under the banjo bolt at the master cylinder, then slowly pump the lever a few times and then hold it in and crack the banjo bolt just as if it were a bleeder nipple.
I did this too. No joy.
Sometimes it is enough to get the master cylinder to start pumping fluid instead if air. Then bleed as normal.
I wish I lived near you as I'd love to have a go at this problem!
Maybe I will remove the bleeder valve and see if I can push some fluid up through the system with the lever held in. Maybe that would be enough to get the air out of the system.
Not trying to hijack this thread but I have a question. I put on some floorboards on my 06 Vegas. Now I don't seem to have as much rear brake pedal as I used to and it feels just a tad soft. I put on new pads and tried bleeding it and got no air out. Can I reverse bleed the breaks? I have never done this. Is there a way to strap the pedal down like the lever and leave it to do the job itself?
Air will migrate to any high spot. If it migrates to a oversize area it will often hang out till it is removed. Sometimes bleeding at the brake light switch by loosening it slightly till any trapped air comes out and resnugging it up till it seals again while someone else keeps gentle pressure on the peddle can be helpful.
BOB
if you still don't have brakes stop what you're doing.
Start from the beginning take master cylinder off the bars and go over to workbench and bleed it. With bars to the left tie off brake line so its pointing up and tie it off. Now while you're bleeding master cylinder all the air in the line is rushing to the top. No air will be trapped down below.
Now with fluid in master cylinder and bleed hook up line.
Do not squeeze lever till hooked up.
Now squeeze lever no more then a 1/8 inch. Keep it up till no bubbles.
If you squeeze it more then a 1/8 inch your just pushing air back down the line.
If dealer does not have copper washers maybe a competitor does
Don't rush go slow.
Easy, VJ. This is hardly the first off-topic post in a thread on the Victory forums. Perhaps a polite and kind suggestion that Cali Phil would get more on-point responses if he started a new thread would be a nicer way to answer than a gruff, "Next time start your own post" or as I interpret it... "get off my lawn you young ruffians"
Fly me down there and stock up with some of the local micro brews and I'll guarantee I'll have you back on the road in say,,,,,,a week. If they are really good brews,,,may be two weeks.
Of course everyone wants to know how I managed to get it to start pumping fluid again. I basically did what I said in post #23 and what Cali Phil said (maybe others; I don't remember). I back flushed it. Took the bleeder screw out, put the silicone tube in full of fluid, and with the syringe I pushed fluid up into the M/C (where I saw a bunch of tiny air bubbles), then reinstalled the bleeder. At this point the system was pumping fluid again so I just bled it as usual.
I hope this helps someone else who has a similar problem to get their M/C pumping again. I will order some speed bleeders for it and the KP so I can maintain them easier going forward. That is if they make them for the KP.
Now I have to figure out how to remove the dash so I can install the MoDoor garage door opener I have been putting off forever but since the front fairing is off...
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