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Running on one cylinder? Please help!

21K views 57 replies 14 participants last post by  tonygiotta 
#1 ·
I've held off on sharing this story for the past month as I've been powerless to do anything about it. I wanted one last shot at making sure I hadn't missed anything obvious before taking it to the forums and making myself look stupid. So here it goes...

The bike: 2012 XC, PCV, D&D's, Lloydz Filter, Lloydz Touring Cams, Lloydz Adjustable Timing Wheel (+4). 10,000 miles on the odometer. PCV, filter, and pipes installed back when it was new, cams and timing wheel installed by me about 2500 miles ago, fuel map borrowed from Rylan.

Here's where I'm at now… Bike starts up but occasionally needs a little throttle to keep from stalling. It then stumbles at idle between about 950-1000 RPM. Feels like it is running on one cylinder as it lopes and the bike shakes. Front cylinder is running noticeably hotter than the rear. Infrared thermometer says the front header at the first bend is 300+ while the rear is only about 175. Front pipe is also nicely blued at the first bend while the rear appears to have a rusty looking patch. When riding, it hesitates as you begin to twist the throttle, but runs relatively smooth above 2000 RPM or so. Power is noticeably lacking both at take-off and cruise and it “thump-thumps” like it’s running on one cylinder.

Where I’ve been… Bike had been running beautifully, even more so after the cam install. I decided to take on the IBA “Hell to Heaven Gold” ride about a month ago. Rode ~500 miles from home to Death Valley and parked it for the night. The next morning it fired right back up without a hiccup. Over the next 750 miles and 15 hours, I encountered a blinding sand storm followed by five torrential thunderstorms. I actually had what looked like a small beach sloshing back and forth on my dash. Made four stops along the way, the longest of which was an hour for dinner. I took advantage of a wide open I-70 in the middle of the night and blasted out another 300 miles averaging about 80mph before stopping in Grand Junction, CO for a few hours rest. Bike was running like a champ. Topped her off, parked her, and then slept for a few hours.

In the morning, I went to start my bike and it sputtered and died. I found I was able to keep it running if I gave it a little throttle. It sounded like it was running on one cylinder and feeling the jugs with my hand indicated that in fact one cylinder was warming up while the other stayed cool. Wasn’t sure what else to do so… I jumped on it, rode it across the street to the freeway onramp, and gave it some gas. It started struggling up the onramp and then suddenly the second cylinder sprang back to life, launching me up to freeway speed and back along my merry way. About 100 miles later, I had to navigate some city streets in Glenwood Springs, CO while changing highways. I pulled in the clutch as I approached a stop light and found my bike was idling very high, somewhere in the neighborhood of about 1750 RPM if I recall correctly. This continued all the way through town, probably about 10 stoplights in total. Got back up to freeway speed and rode on through to Aspen, CO where I hit bumper to bumper traffic. Pulled in the clutch and was pleased to find that my idle was back to normal. I had some starting difficulty after fueling up in Aspen, but that would be the end of my mechanical difficulties for the day as I reached the summit of Pike’s Peak and completed my H2H ride. Mother Nature apparently wasn’t so impressed however as the sky opened up about a mile into my descent and I got blasted by a brutal hail storm. The hail began melting as I continued the 18 mile descent and I soon found myself riding in, across, and through many streams of deep runoff and debris. I rode another 100 miles and got to my friend’s house just in time to get drenched by yet another downpour. Parked the bike in his garage, and called it a day.

I had originally scheduled an appointment at a dealership in Colorado Springs for the afternoon immediately after summiting Pike’s Peak. I was going to get an oil change and have them give the bike a once over during which time I was going to see if they could check for engine codes related to either the single cylinder operation or the high idle issue. Unfortunately, the hail storm I encountered while descending Pike’s Peak resulted in US-24 being closed for an undetermined period of time. I had to take back roads to my friend’s house and missed my appointment. The next day, we took a ride to a dealership in the Denver area so I could pick up an oil change kit. We stopped a few times along the way during what ended up being about a 30 mile ride, stopping and starting the engine without issue. We then grabbed lunch at a spot that required us to park on an incline. A burrito and two margaritas later we went out to the bikes and that’s when the real trouble started. Bike turned on, fuel pump primed, starter cranked and cranked, but it didn’t even try to fire up. I got the bike turned around and coasted it down the hill in an attempt to bump start it, but again, not even a hint of it trying to start.

I parked it at the gas station at the bottom of the hill and tried starting it up a few more times. It was obvious I was doing nothing other than draining my battery at that point so I started some basic troubleshooting as the evening started creeping in. After a while, I did what any irrational (OMG I’m stranded in Colorado and am supposed to be back at work in California in two days!) adult would have done and placed a Hail Mary phone call to Rylan Vos before it got any later. He graciously took my call (despite being at an event in New York, thank you soooo much Rylan) and explained to me the first steps he would take to troubleshoot my bike. I thanked him and got to work with the limited time and tools I had available. Over the course of the next 24 hours, I checked:

1. Battery voltage was good (over 12V)
2. Battery terminals were tight (Didn’t have the equipment to clean them, but had done so in the past year)
3. Fuel level was at roughly 1.25 gallons of 91 octane
4. Main circuit breaker was tested and appeared to be operating normally
5. Rear spark plug wire pulled apart at the crimp! (both wires were replaced with new ones)
6. All fuses and relays in fuse box tested good
7. Ignition coil bench tested at the dealership and determined to be good
8. Spark plugs evaluated by dealership (said they appeared to be from a well-tuned engine)
9. PCV completely unhooked from factory wiring harness (no change)

Still, no love from the Victory gods. And with that, I was out of time. Bought a plane ticket home and made arrangements to have my bike shipped back. Fast forward one month and my bike is finally here. Yesterday I:

1. Siphoned the gas tank and refilled with 2.5 gallons of 91 octane (added some Liquid Heet for good measure)
2. Cleared the gas tank water drain line with compressed air
3. Cleared the gas tank vent line (about 6oz of water blew out of the lines and CA emissions canister)
4. Discovered the CA emissions canister breather tube was oriented down instead of up as it should have been
5. Re-installed the PCV using di-electric grease on all the connectors

The bike now started up but was running poorly as described at the start of my post, so I:

6. Confirmed CPS sensor was undamaged and adjustable timing wheel had not slipped
7. Discovered my rear O2 sensor (on disabled AutoTune) was shot (Raw fuel contamination?)
8. Found TPS shows 0-100% range when hooked up to the PCV software
9. Determined bike runs the same with PCV disconnected as with Zero Map loaded (worse with cam map loaded)

So (for anyone who actually stuck around long enough to read this novel) where do I go from here? Every thread I’ve read with similar symptoms all seem to relate back to the battery terminals so I thoroughly cleaned and re-installed them late last night, but I was unable to fire up the bike before leaving for work due to a sleeping baby. Any ideas beyond that? Please help, I’m stumped and am about ready to drag it down to the dealership for some diagnostic work. Not sure how that will go with all the performance goodies on there…
 
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#2 ·
Rear cylinder not firing means you're either not getting fuel, not getting air, or not getting spark into that cylinder. If those three things are happening then the only remaining failure point is the spark is happening at the wrong time.

Start with the easy stuff. You rode through a sandstorm so check your air filter (unlikely cause since the other cylinder is firing but it wouldn't hurt). Check the ground connection at the frame. If there's more than one, check them all. Just because your battery connections are tight doesn't mean the other end of those cables is as well. Definitely doesn't mean that your ground cable isn't corroded to hell from all the water, dirt, etc you rode through.

Pull the spark plug, is it wet and smelling of fuel? If no, you're not getting fuel and you need to start at the injector and trace back until you find the fault

If yes, are you getting spark? Lay the plug against the cylinder head and crank the motor, you should see a big fat blue spark. If no spark, or spark is small, faint, or yellow, you have a spark fault, start at the plug wire and work your way back until you find the fault.

If you're getting fuel and you're getting spark, the next thing I would do is a compression check, if that checks out good I would find someone willing to loan you a known good ecu and swap that out just to make sure yours isn't toast. If that still doesn't work, start testing all your engine sensors (dunno what all sensors our bikes have but cam and crank position, intake air temp, map/maf, etc. are all possible causes of poor running if one or more are bad)
 
#7 ·
Start with the easy stuff. You rode through a sandstorm so check your air filter (unlikely cause since the other cylinder is firing but it wouldn't hurt).
Air filter is pretty dirty, even blew a bunch of sand out of the frame while I was checking it. I was also thinking it was an unlikely cause due to the other cylinder firing as you mentioned.

Check the ground connection at the frame. If there's more than one, check them all. Just because your battery connections are tight doesn't mean the other end of those cables is as well. Definitely doesn't mean that your ground cable isn't corroded to hell from all the water, dirt, etc you rode through.
I measured 0.2-0.3 Ohms at the ground at the front left of the transmission case as well as the one at the rear left near the clutch cable hanger. I think 5 Ohms was the FSM max reading. I'll have to see if there are other grounds to be tested.

Pull the spark plug, is it wet and smelling of fuel? If no, you're not getting fuel and you need to start at the injector and trace back until you find the fault.
Plugs looked good when I pulled them initially and when I pulled them after getting my bike back. At that time however, they had only run on one cylinder for a couple of minutes followed by 400 miles of proper operation leading up to my no start issue. That probably cleaned them up. They may very well be fouled now after tinkering with the fuel map in my garage and going for a brief test ride. I'll have to re-check them.

If yes, are you getting spark? Lay the plug against the cylinder head and crank the motor, you should see a big fat blue spark. If no spark, or spark is small, faint, or yellow, you have a spark fault, start at the plug wire and work your way back until you find the fault.
I did this test while stranded at the gas station. Saw a blue spark on both plugs, but can't say for certain if they were big and fat. I've only tested plugs like that one other time (on a lawn mower) and after shocking the crap out of myself on the front cylinder, I was a little gunshy when checking the rear and only cranked it once. I don't really have much past experience to compare my observations to.

With new wires and an ignition coil that was confirmed to be good by the dealership, what else is there? ECM directly supplies the ground signal to tell it when to fire, correct? Continuity test between the ECM plug and the ignition coil plug? I guess new plugs probably couldn't hurt.

If you're getting fuel and you're getting spark, the next thing I would do is a compression check
I think that's next, should have grabbed the compression tester while I was at the auto parts store the other day. Hope I haven't toasted a cylinder somehow...

if that checks out good I would find someone willing to loan you a known good ecu and swap that out just to make sure yours isn't toast. If that still doesn't work, start testing all your engine sensors (dunno what all sensors our bikes have but cam and crank position, intake air temp, map/maf, etc. are all possible causes of poor running if one or more are bad)
In the FSM, it basically says the ECM is the least likely thing to fail. Something like a 0.1% chance of failure. At the end of the troubleshooting flow chart when it gets to the ECM, it actually tells you to go back to step 1 and repeat ALL test procedures a second time before beginning to suspect the ECM. That being said, mine has been rev-extended by Lloydz, but it appears to be in good physical condition (no bent pins, no sign of dirt or moisture in the connector).

As for the sensor tests, most of the tests seem to require either the Digital Wrench and/or a more advanced multi-meter with special probes to poke into the harness connectors. I've got some connector pins from another project, maybe I could make myself some probes? Visually inspecting the connectors probably wouldn't hurt either.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'll take your adivce here and hopefully it will help lead me to my answer.
 
#4 ·
:

1. Siphoned the gas tank and refilled with 2.5 gallons of 91 octane (added some Liquid Heet for good measure)
2

QUOTE]

I would never add liquid heet or dry gas, It contains alcohol, Which is already in your gas [ethanol] And that will only draw more water into the tank..
 
#10 ·
I was a little hesitant when I saw that on the bottle, but I was under the impression that the alcohol absorbs the water and mixes it into solution in the gasoline where it can be (inefficiently) burned off. This supposedly keeps the water from pooling at the lowest point in the tank (where the fuel pump pick up is) and allows it to be passed through the cylinders. I decided to try it because I saw what appeared to be a couple of drops of water in the fuel I siphoned out. I only added 4oz to my 320oz of fresh gasoline so it is less than 1% by volume anyways. Don't think it will do any harm.
 
#6 ·
I would copy your post and send it to Rylan at the Vic shop

I would have dealer hook it up to there computer

Rent a fuel pump pressure tester and check fuel pump. 50psi needed

You said un hooking PCV did not change anything ?

Do a spark plug wire test with meter.

Check all vacuum lines going to IAV and rubber nipple plugs

Look for pinched wires or all connectors.
 
#12 ·
I would copy your post and send it to Rylan at the Vic shop
Hoping he might see it while perusing one of the three forums I posted this on. Feel like he has already given me enough free technical support. :eek:

I would have dealer hook it up to there computer
May come to this as only they have the Digital Wrench, but I'm trying to save this for last resort to avoid the hassle/expense of trailering the bike to the dealership and paying shop rate for diagnostic troubleshooting.

Rent a fuel pump pressure tester and check fuel pump. 50psi needed
On the list, but they didn't have the correct fitting on the one I looked at at the parts store. Late model 106's don't have the schrader valve test port any more. You're supposed to use an in-line test fitting (dealer only tool) but I believe you can rig something up with some rubber hose and some hose clamps.

Regarding the fuel pump, you can hear it run when turning on the bike. You can also hear it change tones as it primes the lines after reconnecting the fuel line to the gas tank. It is also supplying the front cylinder through a common fuel line which has led me to believe it is not the issue, and thus not (yet) worth the hassle of rigging up a test connection.

You said un hooking PCV did not change anything ?
Correct. Disconnected and connected with a Zero Map seemed to run identically. Connected with the cam map installed made it idle worse, probably due to the fueling changes at idle on Rylan's map.

Do a spark plug wire test with meter.
Tested the resistance on my original wires. Assumed the new wires I installed were good. Probably worth checking just to be sure though.

Check all vacuum lines going to IAV and rubber nipple plugs
Lines looked good, no nipple plugs for me though as I have the CA emissions package.

Look for pinched wires or all connectors.
Saw some slightly smashed wires where the main harness gets squeezed under the left side cover. Nothing that appeared damaged though. I have been checking all ignition and fuel system related connectors and applying di-electric grease to them, though I'm sure there's still some I haven't gotten to yet.
 
#14 ·
You said the plugs looked good but you didn't say if the rear was wet (unless by good you mean not wet). If the rear cylinder is not firing the plug in that cylinder should be SOAKED in unburnt fuel. If not, you're not getting fuel to that cylinder and that's your problem. Run the bike for 10-30 seconds and pull the plug right away so it doesn't have time to air dry (not like it would for a while anyway but just to make sure). It should be WET. If not, the next step would be to make sure your injector is firing. I have no idea what the injector arrangement is on these bikes since I've yet to take mine apart farther than an oil change but on my aprilia I was able to pull the top of the airbox off and look right down into the throttle bodies while cranking the motor. I could see the actual spray from the injectors (throttle opened so I could see past the butterflies). Another method would be to plug the injector harness into a test light and see if the light flashes on and off while cranking. If so, test the injector with a 12v battery to make sure it's opening, check the spray pattern if you can. If the injector is firing and the spray pattern is good then you probably have a fuel pressure issue. If the spray is bad it's either fuel pressure or clogged injector (water or debris) which will need to be cleaned. If it's not firing you have to start tracing the wiring back to power and the ecu to find the fault.
 
#17 ·
You said the plugs looked good but you didn't say if the rear was wet (unless by good you mean not wet). If the rear cylinder is not firing the plug in that cylinder should be SOAKED in unburnt fuel. If not, you're not getting fuel to that cylinder and that's your problem. Run the bike for 10-30 seconds and pull the plug right away so it doesn't have time to air dry (not like it would for a while anyway but just to make sure). It should be WET.
By good, I meant they were dry and had a light tan sort of color to them. No sign of excessive wear, damage, or deposits. The dealersip also agreed they looked good. As I mentioned however, this was after the no start issue, but prior to my current episode of single cylinder operation. I haven't pulled them again yet. With your description of what to look for after running the bike in mind, I will check to see if they are wet as soon as I get back home from work tomorrow morning. Sounds like an easy way to determine if the rear injector is firing at all.

If not, the next step would be to make sure your injector is firing. I have no idea what the injector arrangement is on these bikes since I've yet to take mine apart farther than an oil change but on my aprilia I was able to pull the top of the airbox off and look right down into the throttle bodies while cranking the motor. I could see the actual spray from the injectors (throttle opened so I could see past the butterflies).
Sounds like a great way to visually see whether they are working. Unfortunately, with the airbox being the frame itself on the cross bikes, you can't look diectly into the throttle bodies, especially not with the gas tank still installed. The air filter is located near the front of the frame while the throttle bodies are near the rear, both under the gas tank. You would need some sort of an inspection camera to see into the inner workings while cranking the motor.

Another method would be to plug the injector harness into a test light and see if the light flashes on and off while cranking.
Can I just touch any old test light to the injector harness plug to see if this is working? Or does it need to be something special? This sounds like a simple approach that I could pursue rather easily.

If so, test the injector with a 12v battery to make sure it's opening, check the spray pattern if you can. If the injector is firing and the spray pattern is good then you probably have a fuel pressure issue. If the spray is bad it's either fuel pressure or clogged injector (water or debris) which will need to be cleaned. If it's not firing you have to start tracing the wiring back to power and the ecu to find the fault.
I've been trying to avoid removing the injectors partly due to the labor involved with removing them, and partly out of fear of contaminating them or otherwise screwing them up. This idea is working its way up the list though. Maybe I could still test them this way without removing them by applying 12V to them with the spark plug removed from the cylinder? Then I could listen/smell for fuel spray inside the cylinder?

If I removed them, I could check to see if they're opening, but I'm not sure how I would go about checking the spray pattern as the fuel rail needs to be removed in order to get them out. Regarding clogging, could water in the gas tank clog them? I guess dirty water could, but it would have to pass through the fuel filter first, right? How do you clean an injector anyway?
 
#15 · (Edited)
First if you haven't actually replaced the plugs I would do that.
At least exchange them from cylinder to cylinder and see if the problem moves. I've had defective plugs that have totally failed in use. It's been a while but I've personally experienced it.

Since your problem started in wet weather I'd be looking for moisture in a connector.
I'd call a vic mechanic and ask if next step is OK to do. If there is any special precautions such as unhooking the battery first etc.

I would make everything safe however recommended then I would remove the ECM plug from the ECM and pull the boot away from it and look for any signs of moisture and dirt.
I'd probably wash it off and out good with a good brand of electrical cleaner designed for delicate plastics. All electrical contact cleaners are not created equal. Make sure it says plastic safe on the can.
I'd mention that you planned to do this when you called whomever you intend to call just incase vic uses some compound in the connector to inhibit oxidation. Just in case.

Then I would let everything sit over night so that the ECM had time to completely bleed down internally and any moisture that was trapped anywhere had dissipated.
Don't play with the pins or sockets while you have it opened.
Just resist the urge to poke or prod.
After everything has sat I would plug it in a couple of times and unplug it. Then plug it in and see if anything has improved.

If not I would work my way through the plugs in the harness associated with the ecm one at a time.
First check the function of every electrical accessory on your bike.
Be sure that everything works no matter how unrelated it maybe.
The clock, thermometer, turn signals etc. etc. Something that you missed that had started malfunctioning could give you a valuable hint as to which connectors might have moisture in them. Being preoccupied with the motor problem might have made you miss something else not working.

Baring something else not working start with anything to do with the ignition, all the sensors etc. Pull the plug inspect for moisture and clean allow ample time to dry and reassemble. I'd get some dielectric grease and put a little on tiny bit on just the rubber seal of the connector when reassembling unless you find that the connector itself is packed with it from the factory. Then I would repack it as per what you found.
Work through the connectors that are most exposed to water while riding first. Plugs to sensors too.
Don't forget the ABS connector, if you have one that is under the rear fender. I have a hard time understanding why it isn't covered on my 8 ball. That and having it mounted facing up so the dirt can build up in it. Pretty poor since there is no Abs unit on mine. That's asking for a problem down the road.

There is a very good chance you have moisture and a little dirt in a connector. Most ecm signals are just a grounding of a switch at very low voltage. So any resistance in the ground can quickly become a signal that is ignored by the ecm. Also when you hold unexpected inputs to ground or close to ground it can keep the any processor so busy that it can't run everything properly.

Everything OK but still no joy. Well your not done yet.
A bad ground is a good place to start.

Aluminum oxide does not conduct electricity. That is what you get when you expose a electrical connection between a connector and the aluminum frame to moisture while it has a voltage passing through it while exposed to O2(air). You avoid making it by cleaning all aluminum exposed surfaces then excluding the air with a grease or compound while you assemble it. Then you keep the area covered with a compound or grease to continue to exclude the 02.

That is why you see a grease like compound on all the ground connections going to the frame on your vic. If any of the grounds that were greased no longer have grease, like the one behind the ecm
for instance you will want to clean it with a scotch bright and coat it with either noalox from home depot or grease.
You'll have to figure out what vic recommends.
You might want to have the battery disconnected while doing this.
Work your way through every connection where there is a screw going into the frame holding a ground wire.
Good luck
Joe
 
#20 ·
First if you haven't actually replaced the plugs I would do that.
At least exchange them from cylinder to cylinder and see if the problem moves. I've had defective plugs that have totally failed in use. It's been a while but I've personally experienced it.
Think I'll try both of those ideas tomorrow.

Since your problem started in wet weather I'd be looking for moisture in a connector.
I'd call a vic mechanic and ask if next step is OK to do. If there is any special precautions such as unhooking the battery first etc.

I would make everything safe however recommended then I would remove the ECM plug from the ECM and pull the boot away from it and look for any signs of moisture and dirt.
I'd probably wash it off and out good with a good brand of electrical cleaner designed for delicate plastics. All electrical contact cleaners are not created equal. Make sure it says plastic safe on the can.
I'd mention that you planned to do this when you called whomever you intend to call just incase vic uses some compound in the connector to inhibit oxidation. Just in case.

Then I would let everything sit over night so that the ECM had time to completely bleed down internally and any moisture that was trapped anywhere had dissipated.
Don't play with the pins or sockets while you have it opened.
Just resist the urge to poke or prod.
After everything has sat I would plug it in a couple of times and unplug it. Then plug it in and see if anything has improved.
I disconnected and checked the ECM connector and it looked pristeen. No bent/broken pins, no signs of moisture or related contamination. I did not however use any contact cleaner on it nor did I apply any di-electric grease to it as there was none in there in the first place and I wasn't sure if that was a good idea on this particular connection. I also connected/disconnected it a couple of times just to make sure it was seated properly. Do you think the contact cleaner would still be a good idea, despite the clean appearance of the connector? You mentioned allowing the ECM to bleed down... do you mean moisture, or does the ECM store voltage in a capacitor or something?

If not I would work my way through the plugs in the harness associated with the ecm one at a time.
First check the function of every electrical accessory on your bike.
Be sure that everything works no matter how unrelated it maybe.
The clock, thermometer, turn signals etc. etc. Something that you missed that had started malfunctioning could give you a valuable hint as to which connectors might have moisture in them. Being preoccupied with the motor problem might have made you miss something else not working.

Baring something else not working start with anything to do with the ignition, all the sensors etc. Pull the plug inspect for moisture and clean allow ample time to dry and reassemble. I'd get some dielectric grease and put a little on tiny bit on just the rubber seal of the connector when reassembling unless you find that the connector itself is packed with it from the factory. Then I would repack it as per what you found.
Work through the connectors that are most exposed to water while riding first. Plugs to sensors too.
Don't forget the ABS connector, if you have one that is under the rear fender. I have a hard time understanding why it isn't covered on my 8 ball. That and having it mounted facing up so the dirt can build up in it. Pretty poor since there is no Abs unit on mine. That's asking for a problem down the road.

There is a very good chance you have moisture and a little dirt in a connector. Most ecm signals are just a grounding of a switch at very low voltage. So any resistance in the ground can quickly become a signal that is ignored by the ecm. Also when you hold unexpected inputs to ground or close to ground it can keep the any processor so busy that it can't run everything properly.
All functions seem to be operating properly on the bike, from the gauges to the lights to the horn to the controls. I'm getting some electrical noise through my speakers when I first turn on the ignition, but I think that is from my aftermarket amp. It might even be normal, I've never really paid much attention to the sounds my speakers make with the stereo turned off before now. I've also been working my way through the connectors, focussing on the ones related to fuel/ignition. I've checked most, but I'm sure there are at least a few I've missed. I've been cleaning them out with compressed air, but again, is contact cleaner called for here?

Everything OK but still no joy. Well your not done yet.
A bad ground is a good place to start.

Aluminum oxide does not conduct electricity. That is what you get when you expose a electrical connection between a connector and the aluminum frame to moisture while it has a voltage passing through it while exposed to O2(air). You avoid making it by cleaning all aluminum exposed surfaces then excluding the air with a grease or compound while you assemble it. Then you keep the area covered with a compound or grease to continue to exclude the 02.

That is why you see a grease like compound on all the ground connections going to the frame on your vic. If any of the grounds that were greased no longer have grease, like the one behind the ecm
for instance you will want to clean it with a scotch bright and coat it with either noalox from home depot or grease.
You'll have to figure out what vic recommends.
You might want to have the battery disconnected while doing this.
Work your way through every connection where there is a screw going into the frame holding a ground wire.
I've checked resistance at the two major grounds on the transmission case and both were at 0.2-0.3 Ohms. If there's another behind the ECM, that would be a good one for me to check as I would assume that's where the ECM gets it's ground signal from? I try to use di-electric grease on most connections and use Ox-Gard (similar to NoALox) on major connections involving dissimilar metals such as battery terminals and frame grounds.
 
#16 ·
I would think that everywhere water could go, some other contaminants could go as well. So, if it gets into the fuel system, it may have routed to the bad cylinder. Like soofle said it could be injector. You can remove tank and get to throttle body to see if injector is spraying as it should.

There is a video somewhere around here that shows how to clean TB. Check it out if you need to. You could also view it on utube.
 
#18 ·
I would think that everywhere water could go, some other contaminants could go as well. So, if it gets into the fuel system, it may have routed to the bad cylinder.
I can see contaminants getting into the fuel, but wouldn't they have to also pass through the fuel filter in order to make it to the injectors?

Like soofle said it could be injector. You can remove tank and get to throttle body to see if injector is spraying as it should.
I like the idea of visually checking the spray, but how do you do that (if it is even possible on the aluminum framed bikes) with the tank removed? Removing the tank also removes the fuel pump which provides the pressure to create the spray. Or am I missing something obvious here?

There is a video somewhere around here that shows how to clean TB. Check it out if you need to. You could also view it on utube.
Inspecting/cleaning the throttle bodies obviously wouldn't hurt anything, but I'm not so sure it is as easy of an operation on a Cross bike as it is on a steel framed bike. I'll have to research that a little further.
 
#22 ·
Gah. It was worth a shot.
 
#24 ·
I know the amp itself is affected by moisture. It will shut off in heavy fog or rain and then come back on again when it drys out. It's had over a month to dry out and is currently working, but I guess it couldn't hurt to disconnect it given the electrical noise I was hearing through the speakers.

For anything beyond a simple oil change, most of the dealers around here are booked 1-2 weeks out. Not so sure they'd be as generous with their time either. And then there's the issue of getting it to the dealership as I'd have to borrow a trailer from someone...
 
#26 ·
I appreciate the post, excellent information. Unfortunately (or is it fortunately?), my check engine light has never illuminated and thus I have no error messages on my LCD display to look at.

Makes a lot of sense, don't it? Most people complain that their CEL is on and they have no idea why. I on the other hand have some sort of serious issue and my CEL won't come on... :crzy:
 
#29 · (Edited)
Missed your post cause I was writing and editing the one above.

It's most likely something that does not report back to the ECM. Use the error code list to narrow your list of possibilities down. If it's on the list, it probably isn't the problem.

Figure out if you are really one lunging it. If you are suspect the injector or maybe no compression in that cylinder etc.
If your running on two plug in both 02 sensors and see if you get a lean or rich cylinder fault. If you get them from both cylinders suspect something that they have in common like the fuel pump, rail regulator etc. If a fault from one cylinder ,injector or mechanical issue preventing it from operating properly consistently.
That post on the cam chain tensioner bears considering too. Especially if you have compression and spark and fuel. Though with a cam chain tensioner problem your compression in one cylinder will be funky.
To find out if you are getting fuel. I guess you could pull one of the plug wires off while it was running. Let it run for a moment on the one. Shut it off and pull the plug that was disconnected and see if it 's wet. That way you will know that you have fuel too.
 
#27 ·
Has anybody mentioned cam chain tensioners yet? I might have missed a page. There was a thread a couple a three years back with a guy who had a problem running on one cylinder. Said it would come to life in higher rpms. There was a bit of noise with his issue though, he said it sounded like chain noise. He and KevinX PMd back and forth a bit. He swapped chain tensioners and the issue followed the tensioner to the other cylinder. He mentioned that his idle was still off though. He said there was a screw on the throttle body that Victory says DO NOT TOUCH!!!! but he said the white paint line across it was way off. He adjusted that screw until the paint line matched up and his idle got better. He replaced his tensioners and all was good. From what I gather though, his issue is an extremely remote occurrence. But if the symptoms are similar it might not hurt to check into it.
 
#28 · (Edited)
This is getting complicated you might want to get some paper and write down everything you do and the results of the tests you run.
This way you won't have to retest again because you can't remember the result of the test you did earlier. It generally helps me. Doing a sort of flow chart can be an asset too.
I'd take a break every once and a while and review everything you have written down as you go along. You might have an ah ha moment.

As others have said you only really need a few things .

Compression which includes air...:)
Fuel
Fuel in close to the correct amount
spark
spark at the right time.
I think that's it.

Compression:
For a compression test stick your fingers in the sparkplug holes one at a time and bump it over with both plugs removed, throttle wide open. If there is a noticeable difference you need to get a real compression tester to confirm you have a hole in a piston, other mechanical problem. etc

To figuring out if it is really running on one cylinder or just running poorly on both:

Pull both plug wires and set them back on the plugs. Push them down till they hit the top terminals of the plugs but don't snap over the terminals. Fire it up then pull off one plug wire. If the motor doesn't react then that cylinder is not firing for whatever reason.
Could be fuel, could be ignition, don't really know why yet but that is the dead one and it maybe the only one with a problem.

If the motor stops when you lift off the wire you know you have the cylinder that is firing and the other is not. If it continues to run in some fashion no matter what wire you pull off then try to see if you get a reasonably close change in rpm no matter which plug wire is removed.
If you do then it 's a problem common to both cylinders like the fuel rail regulator, a sensor causing poor timing or crappy afr from the ecu because it thinks it has conditions it doen't etc.

A induction timing light can also be used to help sort out if you are getting spark to both cylinders.
So will a couple of jumper wires with alligator clips on them.
Clip them from the ground electrode of the plugs to a bare surface on the motor and spin the motor and look for good spark on both plugs.
Turn out the lights if you have to.

Fuel:

Open the gas cap and see if the motor improves running.
That will give you a guaranteed vent.

See if you can pin down which you don't have fuel, spark etc.



You mentioned that once you parked the bike on an incline it the failed to start and ran substantially worse later. Could you have sucked a slug of water into the pump that had gotten into the tank through the faulty canister?

Call a car dealer or car tune up shop and ask them who the local rebuilder is for fuel injectors. Call them and ask what water will do to the injectors and the fuel rail pressure regulator. Will it just pass through or will it foul them and keep them from functioning. Sorry I really don't know. Might call the service manager at the vic dealer and ask him too. With all the atv's etc they service they probably know. Those things are always getting drowned.




For towing to a dealer see if a friend or family member has AAA rv coverage. They get 3 free tows a year. The member has to be present when the bike gets picked up with their card in hand. They don't have to be the owner fortunately.

About the grounds.
There are grounds right in front of the ecm plug. I think there are some under the other side panel too.
There is a hole in the plastic panel that the ecm is mounted on and you will see the grounds attached to the frame there a couple of inches towards the front wheel in front of the ECM plug.
Check continuity from the screw or terminal, if you can get on it to the negative cable where it attaches to the battery. Cable might need to be removed from battery depending on how good a Ohm meter you have and if it has voltage in ohms protection built in.

You mentioned that the max resistance acceptable in the manual was 5 ohms to ground. That seems way to high. Perhaps you misread it and it said .5 ohms. That would be my guess. Be sure to constantly check zero ohms on your meter. I do it before and after each test.

Here are the wire piercing leads you were talking about.
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ESXZ4XI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1[/ame]
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RT9BNQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1[/ame]
They will work as long as your meter uses standard banana plugs. you can also use a pin as long as you are careful not to short out the wiring to something. Seal the holes with a little silicon etc after you are done. You will probably need two sets of the probes and only one set of leads if that is what you are looking for. If you decide to buy only the piercing lead of the size you need be sure to buy the adapter. You do actually need it. One for each probe that is in use.

You said the purge canister was full of water.
Noticed these two codes:
P0443 520202 3 Canister Purge Valve - driver circuit short to battery +.
P0444 520202 5 Canister Purge Valve - driver circuit open or grounded. Check for those codes using the info in the other post.

Be very careful that you understand any procedures that have anything to do with checking sensors etc that are connected to the ecm and anything driven by it. Read the whole chapter on the EFI then be sure you understand everything about the particular test you are doing before you start doing it.
Take your time in setting it up. ECM's aren't cheap.

Good luck.
 
#30 ·
9. Determined bike runs the same with PCV disconnected as with Zero Map loaded (worse with cam map loaded)
So, I'm confused. Did you disconnect the PCV completely, or did you just zero out the map? Or both? I still think it is as simple as the PCV is bad, but you will have to COMPLETELY REMOVE the unit from the bike. Zeroing it out and leaving it connected is not the same.
 
#31 ·
He said he ran it with a zero map AND ran it with the PCV removed or I would be right there with you on the PC going bad.

Regarding the test light, any old test light will work fine to check that the injectors are firing, you don't need anything special. An LED test light might be preferable though since the LED will light up faster than any other kind of bulb and since the injector pulse is short a standard bulb may not have time to light before the signal drops off.

As for cleaning the injectors if necessary, the best way I know of is to remove them. Get a can of carb cleaner with a straw. Connect the injector to a 12v battery to open it up and spray it with the carb cleaner from the outlet side to back flush any contaminants out. Then spray it from the inside as this will give you a decent idea of the spray pattern. Make sure you remove or protect any orings on the injector though since carb cleaner will eat them.
 
#36 ·
First off, thank you to all who have offered suggestions and advice! Most of it that I got (even if I didn't use the actual procedure) contributed to the thought process, gave me ideas, and got me going in the right direction. The bike is still not running properly, but I'm certain that I'm close now.

Using information gleaned from all three forums I posted this in, in conjunction with information in the FSM, I think I've got it figured out. I've been at work the last two days, but here's what I did when I got home this morning:

1. Checked battery voltage after leaving the battery off the Tender for the last two days - 13V (not a battery issue)
2. Checked the plugs to see what they looked like after running the bike in the garage and taking it for a brief test ride the other day (front was sooty, rear looked completely unchanged)
3. Fired up the bike with the rear plug wire disconnected (ran the same as the other day, throttle needed at start up, loping and shaking once it got going)
4. Cranked the motor with the front plug out (obvious fuel smell)
5. Cranked the motor with the rear plug out (no fuel smell)
6. Checked for voltage at the stock rear fuel injector connector (~12.5V upon turning on the ignition)
7. Checked for ground on the signal wire at the stock rear fuel injector wire (Didn't get a good reading due to the use of a digital meter, but it went from steady to fluctuating when I cranked the motor)
8. Hooked up a 12V test light to the stock rear fuel injector connector (light was dim, but pulsed on and off in unison with the stroke of the motor)

So, this tells me:

1. The rear cylinder is not definitely not firing
2. No fuel is being sprayed into the rear cylinder
3. The injector signal is good all the way from the ECM to the rear fuel injector connector

Therefore, I'm almost certain I have a bad rear fuel injector. The only other possibility would be an obstruction in the fuel rail between the T and the injector, but that seems highly unlikely. Now the question is:

1. Are the electrical contacts bad due to moisture and/or contamination?
2. Is the injector stuck due to moisture and/or contamination?
3. Are the contacts bent/broken due to install/removal of PCV?
4. Did the injector just plain fail?
5. Can I clean it out, have it professionally cleaned, or does it need replacing? (My dealer just quoted me $185 for just the part! I'd rather salvage it if I can..)

So why the no start when I got stranded at the gas station? I'm thinking complete obstruction of the vent line due to all the water that got into the CA emissions system. Parking on an incline may have caused the various inlets/outlets to line up in just such a way that it suddenly turned a small issue into a real problem. Water getting pumped into the rear throttle body by the purge valve may have been a contributing factor as well. I know this is going to sound like a real rookie move, but I can't say for sure that I even opened the gas cap while troubleshooting it at the gas station. I know for sure I did not try starting it with the gas cap open. Once I got it home and blew all the water out, it fired (on one cylinder) just fine. I still don't understand the exact cause/effect here, but it sounds plausible to me.

As for the high idle issue, others have reported an issue with a temporary high-idle condition when traveling to significantly higher elevations on the same trip. Since my issue cleared itself up, I'm willing to bet I fell victim to this as well. I'm not saying it should be expected to happen any time you travel to higher elevations, but I think that may be what happened to me.

So what do you think? Sound like I'm on the right track? Any suggestions regarding servicing the fuel injector(s)?
 
#40 ·
Looks pretty sound to me.


I'd be tempted to plug the connector into the injector one more time and grab the cable to it gently once the engine is running and wiggle it to see if the motor starts firing intermittently on both cylinders. Harnesses can have problems.
That is unless you have already done that.

Swapping them and seeing if the problem follows the injector is great advice too. If it doesn't then it is cabling, connector something you missed. I would try that before coughing up money for another one.

Can't add much else you seem to have a good handle on it.
Search the part number for the injector online and see if someone has written up where it is used or crosses to another vehicle etc
Perchance there is a brand and oem part number on it when you get it out? which may be available cheaper or used on Ebay or elsewhere.
Contact a rebuilder and see if they can check it.
At least one post here mentioned a method of cleaning them I think.
Why not? If it's broke and you are at the point where you are going to throw it away or replace it try to clean it first .
Lastly call some of the high performance builders and ask if they have a good used injector for sale. When you build supercharged motors etc often the stock injectors are just too small to use.
They may have a couple on hand that they will be happy to sell you at a better price or they may have another source for that particular injector than ma vic. Just random thoughts.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I just looked and the injectors are the same so just switch the two and see if the front cylinder will be dead. That would tell you the injector is bad. Leave the PCV off for now
Are you still covered under warranty
 
#38 ·
Think that will be Monday's project when the kids are back in school, unless I can sneak it in late night over the weekend while they're asleep. PCV is back on at the moment (I tested the stock connector with the test light) but is easy enough to pull again.

As for warranty, I've been wondering about that. I have the 5 year extended warranty, but I'm not sure how/if I can take advantage of it. Can I bring the injector to my dealer and have them confirm it's bad and warranty it? Do I have to bring the whole bike in and let them diagnose it? Are all bets off in the first place since I have a PCV on there? I don't have a good working relationship established with a shop/mechanic, so I'm not expecting anyone to do me any favors.
 
#41 ·
long as your a pro at pulling the PCV take it off and take bike to dealer.
Take your lumps with him and they can hook up to there digital wrench and save you hours of trying to find out whats wrong.

By the way Polaris does not do the extended warranty and they can cancel it with any performance up grades
 
#45 ·
long as your a pro at pulling the PCV take it off and take bike to dealer.
Take your lumps with him and they can hook up to there digital wrench and save you hours of trying to find out whats wrong.
Agree, take off the PCV. Truck it into the dealer and plug into their computer, youll know straight away what the problem is.
Wow, thanks for the vote of confidence guys. I come on here a few days ago declaring that almost certain victory (pun intended) was in my future at the next opportunity I had to work on the bike, and both you guys tell me I should give up and take it to the dealer. :rolleyes:

Had I wanted to take it to the dealer, I would have done so long ago rather than trying to troubleshoot it. The dealer is just not an easy option for me with a bike that is not running. It would involve borrowing a trailer, two fairly long round trips, and a bunch of down time with my bike sitting in the shop queue awaiting some expensive diagnostic work and undoubtedly some overpriced parts thrown at it. Besides, had I taken your advice and hauled it off to the dealership, I would have missed out on the beautiful ride I took today after fixing it! :p

All kidding aside, yes, it was frustrating at times. I spent the usual amount of time searching for dropped screws, fighting parts into position, and otherwise being inefficient as it was my first time tinkering with the fuel system. I did however gain some intimate knowledge of the inner workings of my bike in the process. Between this repair and doing my own Touring Cam install, I feel pretty confident that I've gained a good understanding of how my bike works and that I'll be able to tackle other roadside repairs (should the need arise) with much more confidence. Not to mention I've learned which tools I really need to carry...
 
#43 ·
Stop !!!!!!!

Before you take it to the dealer. you were in numerous storms during a many mile ride. You checked every little connector and relay?

Did you check the relay next to the battery that is well hidden. not the circuit breaker but the relay on the brake side. Pull it apart and if it is corroded or rusted as mine was then clean it and apply dielectric grease.

Same **** happened to me and left me stranded. Called Kyle and he thought possible PCV. Got her home found what I found as mentioned and performed clean up as mentioned and never had the problem again. All because I was riding in the rain and I washed my bike a lot. when I called Kyle and told him what I had found he said that very well could have been the culprit. Seems that it was. Good luck !!!
 
#47 ·
Before you take it to the dealer. you were in numerous storms during a many mile ride. You checked every little connector and relay?
Well, yes and no. I checked every connector/relay/fuse involved with the fuel and ignition systems, but...

Sounds like you've got it narrowed down pretty well. Maybe just me but I wouldn't bother swapping the injector to the front cylinder just to see if the problem follows it at this point. I'd pull it out, apply 12v and make sure it opens.
Your head was pretty much in the same place as mine with your entire post. Seemed to me swapping them would be a waste of time too. Especially since I was confident I had it narrowed down to the rear fuel injector. I pulled it out (which for anyone reading this thread in the future can be done by simply unbolting the rear half of the fuel rail, unplugging the IAV line at the throttle body, and wiggling it out a piece at a time) and inspected it. It was caked in sand and grit, some of which appeared to be making its way past the lower o-ring. Not good, but this still did not explain how any debris could have clogged it. I applied 12V with an old car battery and a couple of short pieces of wire, heard the distinctive click of it opening, and the remaining fuel in the injector came dribbling out. This pretty much ruled out a failed injector.

If it does, clean it as I described in an earlier post, it may not be clogged but cleaning won't hurt it anyway.
The tip and the nozzles looked brand new (must be all that expensive Chevron gas I use) so I started doubting a fouled injector. But, since I had the injector out anyway, I soaked the tip in some fuel injector cleaner and filled the body of the injector with it too. Let it soak for about an hour, then I held it upside down and flushed the inside of the injector out with a few syringes full of cleaner. Filled it back up with cleaner and cycled the injector open and closed until it was empty again. Probably didn't actually do anything, but it made me feel a little better. I didn't have have any tubing on hand that would fit over the end of the injector (and was a little nervous about trying any of the pressurized flushing ideas I had seen on youTube anyway) so I called it good.

Disconnect the fuel pump and plug the injector back into it's harness. While cranking the engine listen if the injector is firing or not. If not, the issue is most likely the connections on one side or the other. Inspect the pins on both sides for corrosion or damage.
I checked the contacts and they looked decent, but I could see a water mark inside the connector housing, evidence that there had been moisture in the connector. Just for good measure, I cleaned the contacts up with a little sandpaper and scraped them with a dental pick. I applied a little di-electric grease, plugged the injector into the harness, and could feel it clicking as I cranked the motor. I plugged the PCV connectors back in line and all was still good. While I had checked all the connectors previously, I had not been able to check the contacts on the injector itself due to its location directly under the frame. I'm guessing this must have been the culprit. Maybe the PCV connector is not quite as waterproof as the factory connector? :D

I had received a suggestion of hooking the injector back up to the connector and the fuel rail so I could see if it sprayed while cranking. I didn't feel like going through the hassle of reinstalling the tank/fuel pump just to see if it was working (not to mention I was feeling pretty confident it was) so I went ahead and reinstalled the injector in the cylinder. I reassembled the fuel rail and finished putting the bike back together and figured I would re-create my smelling the cylinder test. I pulled the plug wires and the rear plug, stuck my nose up next to the cylinder, and cranked the motor... Got a nice, big, stinky face full of fuel spray!

Hooked the plug wires back up, fired up the bike, and presto! The sweet music of my Vic running on two cylinders again, though it was still a little off beat. Reloaded my Touring Cam map and everything returned to normal. Bonus was my rear O2 sensor came back too. Apparently the pegged reading I was getting was just telling me that there was no fuel in the rear cylinder's A/F mixture. It was now back down to a happy 13.5 or so. Warmed it up, ran it through all the RPM ranges, and was convinced all was good. I then proceeded to take a nice 75 mile test ride through the countryside. Can't describe how nice it was to be back in the saddle again, not to mention the satisfaction of knowing that I (with some excellent advice from my fellow forum members) had been able to fix it myself! cheers

So, in summary, the challenge here was that I had three distinct symptoms that ended up being unrelated. I guess you could argue that two of them were due to all the rain I rode through, but the actual issues themselves were still attributed to three different systems. My best (educated) guess is:

1. Running on one cylinder --> Rear injector contacts compromised by moisture
2. High idle --> Transient issue due to elevation change
3. No start --> Vent line and CA emissions system filled with water, exacerbated by parking on an incline, likely due to breather tube being in the wrong position
 
#44 ·
Sounds like you've got it narrowed down pretty well. Maybe just me but I wouldn't bother swapping the injector to the front cylinder just to see if the problem follows it at this point. I'd pull it out, apply 12v and make sure it opens. If it does, clean it as I described in an earlier post, it may not be clogged but cleaning won't hurt it anyway. Disconnect the fuel pump and plug the injector back into it's harness. While cranking the engine listen if the injector is firing or not. If not, the issue is most likely the connections on one side or the other. Inspect the pins on both sides for corrosion or damage. If it IS firing while cranking the engine then cleaning probably corrected the problem. If after reinstalling the bike still isn't running on the rear cylinder, try wiggling the wires as someone else suggested in case the connection is loose or a wire is damaged.
 
#50 ·
Am happy for you. To bad you had to learn this the hard way but now your knowledge will help someone ells.
I would tell the state about the bad gas you get from that station
 
#51 ·
I don't think it was bad gas that he bought. Whoever assembled his bike put the cal emission's canister on wrong and it forced water into the tank through the vent during a blinding rain storm.

That is what I got when I re read his post the other night.
 
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