What fuel octane? [Archive] - Victory Forums - Victory Motorcycle Forum

: What fuel octane?


pwcscc
05-13-2011, 06:47 AM
What octane do you prefer? What differences have you been able to discern with your bike in the 87 to 93 spectrum? THANKS! (I have a 2011 Vision)

roughneck9725
05-13-2011, 09:51 AM
Let me be the first to dispel some rumors on octane here.

Myth: Higher octane in a given motor will give more performance.
Truth: Engines are tuned from the factory to run a particular octane. Octane is simply (without going into the mechanics of it) the rate at which the fuel will burn and its resistance to detonation as pressure builds. An engine tuned for higher octane will have its ignition timing retarded to take advantage of the more stable fuel, and also have higher mechanical compression ratios built in. Cam timing is usually set to allow higher cylinder pressure, which in turn requires stronger rods, pistons, etc... Now, an engine tuned for 87 Octane will run worse generally with higher octane fuel. The reason is the fuel will not completely combust because of the slower burn time, and allow maximum cylinder pressure as a result, equalling less horsepower. The fuel is typically ignited BEFORE the piston reaches TDC and maximum cylinder pressure ideally reached just as the piston begins the downstroke. If you use fuel that burns slower than the engine is tuned for, maximum cylinder pressure will not happen until well after the piston is moving down the cylinder, meaning you will not get the "bang" for your buck so to speak.

Equally, by using a lower octane fuel than a motor is tuned for, the fuel could detonate or burn to quickly, causing cylinder pressure to max out before TDC, resulting in tremendous strain on the engine and possibly scattering it (this is why many people who use nitrous and dont tune for it end up with a pile of parts, but I digress...).

In short, unless you know what you are doing and retune for higher octane, use what the manufacturer recommends. Sorry for the long post.

diamondrmp
05-13-2011, 10:28 AM
Preference is irrelevant. The manufacturer recommends premium octane ONLY!

As roughneck pointed out it is to prevent detonation. Detonation is very bad for your engine.

busajack
05-13-2011, 12:51 PM
:I agree::I agree:with roughneck. Finding the same thing especially at my altitude..
One thing to keep in mind is that high octane gas actually burns slower than low octane gas. That was a particular advantage in older engines where poor flame propagation across an expansive combustion chamber made them susceptible to knocking. However, new head designs have such improved burn properties (better turbulence, squish area etc.) that they “tolerate” lower octane fuels much better even with much higher compression ratios. Typically, a modern engine will produce the best power and efficiency with the lowest octane (fastest burn) that does not induce knocking.



Now, most new high performance car engines have the ability to alter timing and other variables (adjust their “state of tune” as Route6T6 refers to) to achieve best performance/efficiency for a given octane, so they will run fine on low octane but often better on high octane. Most bike engines don’t (yet) have that level of sophistication (lacking knock sensors) and so are designed (tuned) to run without damage on lower octane gas even though they recommend higher octane for a safety margin (under harsh conditions such as high loads at low rpm and high temps.) So many bikes will run as good or better on relatively low octane gas. All the bikes I’ve had in the past 8 years (liquid cooled Ducatis, 110” Warrior, FJR, V-strom, Roadliner) ran as good or better (with as good or better gas mileage) on 89 octane as on 93 octane - my Ducati’s ran noticeably better on 89. On the other hand, if I had a sportbike with 13:1 CR I imagine I'd run 91 or higher whenever possiblethumb upcheers

busajack
05-13-2011, 01:05 PM
Cool vid. of combustion from inside. Burning not exploding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEf8va1S7Sw&feature=player_embeddedthumb up
Can't wait to see this with Direct injection.

ndabunka
05-13-2011, 06:14 PM
Let me be the first to dispel some rumors on octane here.

Myth: Higher octane in a given motor will give more performance.
Truth: Engines are tuned from the factory to run a particular octane. Octane is simply (without going into the mechanics of it) the rate at which the fuel will burn and its resistance to detonation as pressure builds. An engine tuned for higher octane will have its ignition timing retarded to take advantage of the more stable fuel, and also have higher mechanical compression ratios built in. Cam timing is usually set to allow higher cylinder pressure, which in turn requires stronger rods, pistons, etc... Now, an engine tuned for 87 Octane will run worse generally with higher octane fuel. The reason is the fuel will not completely combust because of the slower burn time, and allow maximum cylinder pressure as a result, equalling less horsepower. The fuel is typically ignited BEFORE the piston reaches TDC and maximum cylinder pressure ideally reached just as the piston begins the downstroke. If you use fuel that burns slower than the engine is tuned for, maximum cylinder pressure will not happen until well after the piston is moving down the cylinder, meaning you will not get the "bang" for your buck so to speak.

Equally, by using a lower octane fuel than a motor is tuned for, the fuel could detonate or burn to quickly, causing cylinder pressure to max out before TDC, resulting in tremendous strain on the engine and possibly scattering it (this is why many people who use nitrous and dont tune for it end up with a pile of parts, but I digress...).

In short, unless you know what you are doing and retune for higher octane, use what the manufacturer recommends. Sorry for the long post.

Thank you, Thank You, Thank you! I've had similar discussions on three different forums (Mercedes, BMW & Acura) and nobody has yet summed this up so eloquently in such a brief period. Can I quote you outside this forum?

Subscribed

ammo_umb
05-13-2011, 06:50 PM
Due to altitude gas in utah is different, our regular is 85 and premium is 91. Since I live at 5000' and ride mostly in the mountains up to around 8000' I run 85. I experiance preignition Roughneck is talking about every time I run 91. When I get over 6000' it happens with 87 so I ignore the manufactures recommendation. The loss of power is real; I feel like the bike is bogging anytime I give it gas -- I can do ok easing on the throttle.

goon
05-14-2011, 05:01 AM
never heard of 89 in uk we have 95 or 98

roughneck9725
05-14-2011, 08:41 AM
Thank you, Thank You, Thank you! I've had similar discussions on three different forums (Mercedes, BMW & Acura) and nobody has yet summed this up so eloquently in such a brief period. Can I quote you outside this forum?

Subscribed

Absolutely. I actually used to work as a Mercedes Benz technician. I have been a student of high performance since 16 years old and I still learn every day. This is one of those big misconceptions people have out there (there are many). Hope it helps some people out.

ammo_umb
05-14-2011, 08:42 AM
Goon,
Maybe that answers part of the question why gas in Europe costs so much more than in the U.S. There may be a few cities where you can find 98 Octane but I don't think it's standard in any state.

40XC
05-14-2011, 05:04 PM
Due to altitude gas in utah is different, our regular is 85 and premium is 91. Since I live at 5000' and ride mostly in the mountains up to around 8000' I run 85. I experiance preignition Roughneck is talking about every time I run 91. When I get over 6000' it happens with 87 so I ignore the manufactures recommendation. The loss of power is real; I feel like the bike is bogging anytime I give it gas -- I can do ok easing on the throttle.

You won't get pre-ignition using the higher octane, you get that using lower octane. With the higher octane you get detonation from the flame coming late after the piston has started downward(like Roughneck explained) thus the flame has to 'catch' the piston which can cause nasty issues when they collide. The higher octane fuel is more stable to pre-ignition thus why it's used in higher compression engines because the air is heated by compression and low octane fuel can actually start combusting before the spark merely from the compression heat. This is the principal a diesel operates from. The higher octane fuel may not burn completely which also has it's drawbacks. Higher altitudes often don't need as much octane because the air is a lot thinner at the higher alt's which in effect lowers the compression of the engine.

Blue Bird
05-14-2011, 05:39 PM
I'm not an expert, but I have worked in the oil & gas industry for over 20 years. A good part of that was spent in refining.

Octane is added simply to prevent detonation. As one of our other members has pointed out, you want the mixture to burn, not explode/detonate.
When the mixture explodes it impacts the piston much like a hammer and puts high loads on your rod and it's bearings.

The reason people ruin engines with Nos is usually insufficient fuel to match the additonal O2 being added in the gas. This results in a lean mixture /extreme EGT's under high loads and melts stuff.:o

Isn't it amazing how a forum brings out the "rocket scientist" in all of us.:D

kevinx
05-14-2011, 08:53 PM
never heard of 89 in uk we have 95 or 98

Octane rating method method is different in the North America as compared to most of the world.

As for how much. I riun the l;owest number possible without seeing any ping. Around here that means in winter I run low/mid, and in summer I run mid/high....Depending on which bike I am riding. My 03 C bike is very forgiving, but my KP will let me know imediatly if I pick wrong

ammo_umb
05-14-2011, 09:11 PM
My doesn't ping when I get into higher altitudes but it definately loses power. So since it appears running the lowest octane possible without ping I'm ok.

goon
05-15-2011, 11:03 AM
it costs so much cos its mostly tax!

busajack
05-15-2011, 01:06 PM
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/

If you can digest this you will have no more questions about Octane.thumb upcheers

RICZ
05-15-2011, 04:46 PM
Goon,
Maybe that answers part of the question why gas in Europe costs so much more than in the U.S. There may be a few cities where you can find 98 Octane but I don't think it's standard in any state.
Two reasons gas costs so much in Europe: extremely high taxes and they way they refine to obtain a much higher percentage of Diesel fuel from a barrel of oil than does the US.

ml8320
05-15-2011, 06:12 PM
nice video of the 4 stroke combustion, thanks for the explanation of octane rating, very informative.

Blue Bird
05-15-2011, 08:10 PM
:Dok, can't help myself...

Just to add some more thinkin...

Gasoline can be a mixture of a number of components. The recipies can differ from station to station.

The vapor pressure of gasoline is different in the summer than the winter. We sell a winter blend and a summer blend. The switchover dates are different up north than they are down here in Florida.

Many times you are actually getting 93 octane from an 87 octane pump. This is due to the refineries being "long" on octane.

This happens often in a down economy where people don't want to pay for premium. The refinery has to do something with the reformate, so they blend it off.

Ok, I will quit now.:crzy: You learn all kinds of stuff when you work with the commercial side of the fuel business for a while.

BBob
05-16-2011, 07:21 AM
Just wanted to add that the CAT's will burn hotter if the fuel isn't combusted completely before entering the exhaust pipe. That can create problems as well.

lucky13
05-16-2011, 05:23 PM
Goon/Ammo,

trying to remember, been a couple three years since being across the pond, but i believe the EU uses just the research method for classification of it's fuel octane levels were here in the US we used the average between research and motor methods of octane classification?

Randy
05-16-2011, 10:01 PM
So is everyone running premium in thier Vics?
Doesn't state this in the manual, but it does say 92 octane. I filled up with 89 instead of 87, my first tankfull, and didn't hear any pinging.
Just curious what most are running and if this will be a problem.Want my bike to be happy!

ndabunka
05-16-2011, 10:24 PM
So is everyone running premium in thier Vics?
Doesn't state this in the manual, but it does say 92 octane. I filled up with 89 instead of 87, my first tankfull, and didn't hear any pinging.
Just curious what most are running and if this will be a problem.Want my bike to be happy!

As long as it doesn't ping, people tend to think that the fuel is OK. However, what many do not realize is that they would (usually) get SIGNIFICANTLY better fuel economy if they would simply use the fuel that the manufacturer "tuned" the engine to use. Therefore, if your manual stated 92 (which IS premium by the way), why would you even CONSIDER 89 much less 87? Try it for yourself. Use 91 or 92 and see if your fuel economy doesn't increase.

I have links on another PC where some company did a comparison regarding using lower grade (87/89) fuels in cars that recommend premium (BMWs, Mercedes, etc) as well as in cars that were tuned for regular (like toyota Highlanders). The bottom line was that the highlander (being tuned for regular) got ZERO benefit from using a premium fuel (no better fuel economy so putting premium in a regular-tuned car is a waste). However, the cars "tuned" for premium from the mfg, got something like 3% BETTER fuel economy when using the correct, higher grade fuels. When you realize that premium is usually only about 1 to 2% more expensive than regular, you will then understand that although the initial costs are higher for the premium fuel, you more than make up for it with the better fuel economy in the vehicles that can benefit from it.

HammerMedic
05-16-2011, 10:35 PM
So is everyone running premium in thier Vics?
Doesn't state this in the manual, but it does say 92 octane. I filled up with 89 instead of 87, my first tankfull, and didn't hear any pinging.
Just curious what most are running and if this will be a problem.Want my bike to be happy!

Victory runs their bikes very lean from the factory. Most of us have more than likely ran into the backfire or hesitation when grabbing a handfull of throttle. This is fixed somewhat by a stage one upgrade from my personal experience. My hammer has stage one pipes and my dealer played with the fuel curve a bit in addition to the normal upgrade thumb up. My Bike is on the rich side now and i dont have any hesitation. Where i am going with this is that higher octane fuel actually burns slower. So with a lean fuel mixture and a lower octane, in my opinion you are asking for trouble. The bikes cost way too much to be melting them down, unless you are looking to go for some upgrades when damage occurrs. A dollar per fill up could save you thousands over time.

diamondrmp
05-17-2011, 12:03 AM
So is everyone running premium in thier Vics?
Doesn't state this in the manual, but it does say 92 octane. I filled up with 89 instead of 87, my first tankfull, and didn't hear any pinging.
Just curious what most are running and if this will be a problem.Want my bike to be happy!


So the manual said 92 and you are putting in 89-87? Why would you put in a lower octane?

Lower octane can cause detonation and don't always think that the pinging is going to be that audible.

So if you have some here that say they are running lower octane you will do the same?

Running lower octane will sooner or later come back to bite you.

haVok
05-17-2011, 04:47 PM
I run 93. All that you can find around here is 87/89/93.

Peredhil
05-17-2011, 05:00 PM
I've only ever put in 93.

I use factory recommended fuel and factory recommended oil.

Randy
05-17-2011, 07:00 PM
Thanks for the response all! Low fuel light came on after leaving dealership, they had to fasten down high idle cable, and i filled up with premium. You all are right, I'll stick with what the manual says, besides the mileage offsets the cost :)--42 mpg my first tank.
Thanks again guys!!

Highway Star
05-19-2011, 06:22 PM
So the manual said 92 and you are putting in 89-87? Why would you put in a lower octane?

Lower octane can cause detonation and don't always think that the pinging is going to be that audible.

So if you have some here that say they are running lower octane you will do the same?

Running lower octane will sooner or later come back to bite you.

I've been running 87 for 2 years now with no problems. I've tried different octane levels but my Hammer runs best with 87. Less popping, so that tells me the lower octane fuel is burning more completely.

My Hammer is a 08 with a 8.7:1 compression 100ci motor. I'm sure that has a lot to do with it running better on 87.