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corporate knows HDs are inferior

11K views 51 replies 14 participants last post by  4 inch pistons 
#1 ·
I have 2 friends who work at one of the top 5 HD dealers in the world. I went there today to say hi and shoot the bull..I was talking to one about my KP as he was outside admiring it and this is what was said. He asked why a Vic? I told him before I purchased my KP I thought about an HD again but after looking at riding and reviewing the differences I made my decision based on reliabilty, price, power and looks. I mentioned I would not have a worry in the world to take off to the coast today and I needed an oil change. He said " I know what you are saying. Corporate knows that HDs are inferior and break down" " They rely on that to sale alot of parts". This guy is on straight commission 8.5% of net. He made over $50,000 last year. You do the math. This is one man. He said Vics dont break very often and that would be tough on Vic in parts sales. But popular to folks who want more for thier money. Seems it would be heart breaking to the die hards who put so much faith and loyalty in that brand. to know they are designed to fail seems pretty insulting to me and I dont have one anymore...Truth hurts in this case for sure. I will never have another..
 
#2 ·
I wouldn't go so far to say that about all HD's. There were some good years and not so good years in both the Sportster and big twin lines. The V-Rod is in a class by itself.

I think the 95-99 were good years for the big twins and since they worked the bugs out of the newer 1200 Sportsters; they have both the power and reliability not found in models before them.

I'm less impressed with the Twin Cam models. It seems like one needs to completely rebuild it and put in the good parts HD should have from the factory. Cost-wise it wouldn't cost HD or its customers that much more for a far superior and far more reliable big twin but MOCO chooses not to and that fact alone is what pushed me away from HD with a few exceptions. I like my Vic's and find the 04's to run better than the 11' over all but the 106 definitely has more power; especially with some kind of tuner and the Lloydz cams, pipes, af, etc.
 
#4 ·
I wouldn't go so far to say that about all HD's. There were some good years and not so good years in both the Sportster and big twin lines. The V-Rod is in a class by itself.....

If HD put the V-Rod engine in their cruisers, I'd be riding one now.
 
#3 ·
HD engines are not designed to fail... The issues are that to meet emissions with their aging design they are killing the power. To combat this they keep making the engine bigger (88, 96, 103) but the bigger it gets the more heat it generates and the more stress is put on the bottom end of the engine. Since they did away with the Timken bearings on the crank and (like everyone else) went to low bidder on the press-fit cranks, the potential for failure increases. On top of that, the 103" in emissions legal trim makes the same HP as the 88" did. Something's gotta give.

I suspect that HD has a major engine revamping going on. This is why they won't do anything to improve the current engines. They are putting the money into something new and using up current stock and timing-out current vendor contracts.

I have seen a few magazine comparisons between Harleys and 1300cc Japanese cruisers. The sad part is that the 1300 will out-run the HD. All the 'mystique' in the world cannot help you when you're shaking your fist at the tail light of a Japanese 1300 yelling "But it'll never be a Harley!". Hard to feel badassed when you're getting your ass handed to you by a bike that's 24 cubic inches smaller and costs $8000 less... For this reason I think we'll see something new from HD soon.


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#12 ·
HD engines are not designed to fail... The issues are that to meet emissions.
Well Im telling you what a parts guy who has worked for them for over 15 years told me face to face. They have had meetings that this has come up in discussion in and its a known fact. Whatever the excuse is. Emissions, lack of R&D, or the falure to make changes that would prevent problems that they know exist . If a change in technology and design is known to fix a problem that exists and it is not implemented in the next newer design, Its designed to fail. Thats a no brainer. WHY would they change anything with no other choices out there for the diehard "bikers" Hell that ment money to everyone in HD. Its the same thing Cadillac did to the general public when they first came out with a diesel engine in thier cars. They built the overhead strong but failed to build the lower end strong. Due to high compression that diesels have they tore up the lower ends. Cranks and rods where getting destroyed. They--> Cadillac used the general public as guinea pigs instead of spending money on R&D. You cant tell me and make me believe they HD were building engines to keep up with emission standards and they did not know thru testing that they had problems. It the problems ment $$$$ to them in the way of parts sales. That brand HD was and is so popular and with the lack of another choice people turned a blind eye and were willing to accept it and modify or spend $$ to fix a problem HD should have been fixing instead of investing in apparel. NOW that there is another choice hopefully HD has taken notice and will as you said make changes.
 
#5 ·
As a long time Harley Rider I will be the first to agree the quality is not what it was .. Will add I did get almost 70,000 miles out my last 09 Ultra, but had a few issues, most primary related. Replaced the Stock Compensator twice wirh the SE Compensator, 2 Inner primary seals and one inner primary bearing .Lost my TBW and had to replace the ECU .. ABS went out once and had to replace the Sensor unit .. Had a recall on the Rear Break Switch due to heat problems from it's location but it didn't fail on me .. These were all covered by Warranty and Extended Warranty an did not have any out of pocket cost and the Dealer treated me like family, but got tired of the aggravation.. Quite happy with my XC so far, and will never give up my FXR4.. Last of the FXR Frames and the last Big Twin EVO .. Never had a minutes problem with it ...
 
#10 ·
The HD 'faithful' don't embrace the V-Rod, and the sales figures of the V-Rod compared the their big twins bears this out.

Back in the motocross days, the 125cc bikes ran the same lap times as the 250cc bikes, BUT you had to ride your ass off and row that gearbox constantly on the 125, while the 250 was much easier to ride due to the wider spread of torque. The same thing applies to a 600cc sportbike vs a liter bike. The 600 makes 80 horse at around 10,000 rpm and spins to 14,000 rpm, where the 1000 makes 80 horse by 6000 and is all done before 12,000. Huge difference in the riding experience. Riding with liter bikes you'll be running the piss out of the 600.
 
#11 ·
The HD 'faithful' don't embrace the V-Rod, and the sales figures of the V-Rod compared the their big twins bears this out.QUOTE]

I ride with a guy that rides a V-Rod, and he says he often gets grief from the HD faithful about it not being a real Harley. Can't see them moving that motor to a different bike, even though they should.
 
#13 ·
I've owned quite a few Harleys from shovelhead to evo to several twin cams and a vrod. I have to say that I am a big believer in the vrod engine. My Street Rod is an absolutely blast and is by far the absolute best performing Harley to date, IMHO. It is too bad that the Harley fan base is so reluctant to embrace new and better technology. So the Harley brass has a real dilemma - adopt new technology but risk loosing and alienating a loyal and profitable customer base.


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#14 ·
I've owned quite a few Harleys from shovelhead to evo to several twin cams and a vrod. I have to say that I am a big believer in the vrod engine. My Street Rod is an absolutely blast and is by far the absolute best performing Harley to date, IMHO. It is too bad that the Harley fan base is so reluctant to embrace new and better technology. So the Harley brass has a real dilemma - adopt new technology but risk loosing and alienating a loyal and profitable customer base.
That is it alright. The faithful don't want a lot of changes over the years so one part will fit many many years and the sound is paramount.

An HD rider will give up power and reliability but he won't give up the Harley sound. It is positively ingrained for most and they don't care how much extra maintenance they need to do make it all work.

Been there done that. That is until I realized how HD was cheating us with cheap bearings and other critical parts that would not have cost them or us much more to have a much stronger motor that did not have to be rebuilt from the bottom up if someone wanted to do a simple bore and piston job along with the cams which usually meant a replacement oil pump while you were in there and up graded cam chain followers.

You would be looking at $5-$7k on an HD but would be a relatively simple operation on a Vic. The Vic motor is built to handle about 140/140 hp/tq. The HD big twin motor is built to handle max of 100/100 hp/tq. That's just the way it is.

The HD 103 is as perfect as the Twin Cam motor gets. Go to high performance cams and be prepared to split the cases and do it all. Really just better off leaving it stock and just do a Stage 1 and call it a day. It will last that way but won't make the hp/tq hounds too happy.
 
#16 ·
The HD big twin motor is built to handle max of 100/100 hp/tq. That's just the way it is.

The HD 103 is as perfect as the Twin Cam motor gets. Go to high performance cams and be prepared to split the cases and do it all. Really just better off leaving it stock and just do a Stage 1 and call it a day. It will last that way but won't make the hp/tq hounds too happy.
I can vouch for that. I had a big bore on a twin cam, 123 CI. That bike left me stranded on numerous occasions. After that, I stuck to stage I.
 
#15 ·
No one is asking HD to put the V-rod engine in their other bikes.

Let's get back to the issue of this thread:
Their TwinCam engines have reliability issues, HD brass knows about it but refuses to address it.

HalfCrazy may be right that they are developing something new - but even if so that is no excuse to accept the status quo. It is not like they don't have any choices.

They could upgrade the parts at issue (bearings, cranks) in current models. Even if it costs them a few bucks to get out of current contracts.

But first and foremost they could own up to the problem and take care of their customers that experience failures due to substandard parts. That is what good companies do. Their #1 objective is to make their customers happy and they stand behind their product.

It shows that HD has gone the way of many a large corporation: They've lost their roots - the focus on the customer.

In fact they may not even see themselves as being in the motorcycle business anymore. The CEO of Starbucks was once asked by an interviewer about something or another about "the coffee business". He shook his head and told the journalist "but we are not in the coffee business. We are in the people business".

The point was that for Starbucks selling coffee is only a means to get people into their stores - supposedly to connect with other people. (Not sure I buy that - but that was his point).

Following the same logic, I think HD's brass has a similar fancy vision of being in the "lifestyle business", and selling bikes is only a means to get people into their interpretation of the biker lifestyle, where even the dog drinks out of a MoCo branded bowl.

The funny thing is how that lifestyle evolved: I can remember a time where many 'real' riders refused to ride with the HD guys because their bikes always would break down.
Read: The special 'bond' between HD riders was not created by the MoCo - the riders of other brands made them the outcasts with greasy fingers.

The reason the MoCo subsequently improved the quality of their bikes was that they realized their target market was finite in numbers and with limited disposable income.

It was more lucrative to exploit the midlife crises of attorneys, bankers, doctors and other good earners by selling them the biker lifestyle. However they realized that required bikes that would not break down on every ride - No one wants to see their surgeon show up for work Monday morning with the telltale black fingernails of a roadside repair.

Note that they did not eliminate the problems - they just pushed them up into a mileage bracket these people would never see. And if you are used to the maintenance cost of a Porsche etc., the cost to have the dealer replace your cam chain tensioner proactively every once in a while is only a drop in the bucket.

The only ones that leaves out is the guys (and gals) that actually put substantial mileage on their bikes and aren't interested in giving their dealer carte blanche todo whatever whenever to keep their bike running - without regard to the cost.

But there is not that much profit margin in those people anyway. Maybe HD doesn't mind if they leave the happy lifestyle family and go ride Victorys instead....
 
#17 ·
No one is asking HD to put the V-rod engine in their other bikes.

Let's get back to the issue of this thread:
Their TwinCam engines have reliability issues, HD brass knows about it but refuses to address it.

HalfCrazy may be right that they are developing something new - but even if so that is no excuse to accept the status quo. It is not like they don't have any choices.

They could upgrade the parts at issue (bearings, cranks) in current models. Even if it costs them a few bucks to get out of current contracts.

But first and foremost they could own up to the problem and take care of their customers that experience failures due to substandard parts. That is what good companies do. Their #1 objective is to make their customers happy and they stand behind their product.

It shows that HD has gone the way of many a large corporation: They've lost their roots - the focus on the customer.

In fact they may not even see themselves as being in the motorcycle business anymore. The CEO of Starbucks was once asked by an interviewer about something or another about "the coffee business". He shook his head and told the journalist "but we are not in the coffee business. We are in the people business".

The point was that for Starbucks selling coffee is only a means to get people into their stores - supposedly to connect with other people. (Not sure I buy that - but that was his point).

Following the same logic, I think HD's brass has a similar fancy vision of being in the "lifestyle business", and selling bikes is only a means to get people into their interpretation of the biker lifestyle, where even the dog drinks out of a MoCo branded bowl.

Think you have hit the nail head on with the Hammer never looked at that aspect of it .. Lets see, this group you refer to does 5-6K a year would take them 12 years to find out what I did in 3 .. Never really had any problems to speak of until had 60K and by 70 K was totally disgusted with it being in the shop 4 more different times in less than 10K miles .. Even though warranty covered them not my idea of a Good Bike
 
#19 · (Edited)
Been a Harley guy since 2004 until the Vic. EVO was the best HD engine. The Twinkie is OK in its stock form--- but few guys leave it that way. My last 2000 Ultra Classic, I spent over $3000 in a 95" big bore kit, cams, upgraded chain tensioners, PCIII and custom map, etc and got it up to 88 HP and 96ft lbs, which is just about the max for durability. Test rode the Vic and traded it the next day. Nuff said.

Rode a buddies Night Rod and it was awesome! But "true HD guys" do not see it as a real Harley. The newer rod models do have more low end torque--- but they do not have the THUMP! Therefore, check the resale. They are very cheap and do not hold their value like the big twins.

The one I wish I had back was a 90% restored 1990 Heritage that was "modified" and stronger than any 88 CID twinkie that I have owned. It also got 29 MPG, but it had a swagger that was hard to beat! Here are some pics.

Summary: I love the Kingpin
 

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#20 · (Edited)
Yes. The earlier evo's were fine once the cam bearing issue was taken care of and maybe a gasket or two. Small stuff for sure but it should not have been an issue in the first place and that's why I ride Vic's today.

You might notice I do have a 2001 Sporty. It's a fun little bike and it's for sale but dang if I don't like that sound coming out of the V&H pipes. :D People look at it where ever I go and that sound perks up their ears as well.

http://mohave.craigslist.org/mcy/3373132258.html
 
#22 · (Edited)
I had an 05 883 mostly stock and it was a blast. My 260 lbs made it look like I was riding a mini bike. You are correct in that they have the best sound with just a good set of pipes. But with the EFI they have lost the signature rumble. Most of my issue had to do with the new CEO and the marketing attitude of their parts.

They make a good bike and they have a loyal customer base, but they must keep the same 1903 technology to keep them happy and that is becoming more and more difficult.
 
#24 ·
The MoCo long long ago evolved from a motorcycle manufacturer into a product manufacturer. Motorcycles are products, tee shirts are products, jewelry, card tables, teddy bears and of course image are products.
As a general rule planned obsolescence is a common indicator of a manufacturers commitment to product manufacture while manufacturers that model themselves as specific, in our case motorcycle manufacturers, tend to not rely on obsolescence in their business plan. You can argue that by limiting their mission statement to a specific product motorcycle manufacturers, at least American motorcycle manufacturers hastened their demises.
As for intended failure, you can take it as gospel that HD knows to the decimal point the lifespan of the bikes and the failure flowchart that defines which parts fail in what order and for what reason. The benefit of extended duration product runs is the baseline you can assemble. Now, that doesn't mean that parts fail on some pinned date but the factory knows with relative certainty how many will fail by a given time. That's how inventory is controlled.
By analysis the MoCo finagles failure rates as a component of profit. Too much failure, model sales suffer and too few failures service sales suffer. Big players like Harley pay handsomely both internally and to consultants to find the sweet spot. I imagine Polaris does too. The benefit to a Vic rider is that the data set at Polaris is not nearly as robust as Harleys so obsolescence efforts are less reliably implemented.
 
#25 ·
My personal theory is that the MoCo has evolved into something nobody ever expected. While most companies were growing aznd trying to change and improved their product, HD grew into more of a lifestyle and then the marketing came along. The other sharpe edge to that sword was it had to remain true to what made it so popular, and that was the antiquaited design behind the drive train. Add to that, that while their fit and finish is one of the highest qualities of any product, the core design is still over a hundred years old. They have a unique challenge of making a 2012 model, but it has to look like a 1980 model. With my 1990 Heritage, it took a trained eye to tell it wasn't a late 2000 model.

So they have to make it better, but not change it. VERY HARD TO DO! So-- Are they an infierior product???? Yes, but by design and not quality.

Compare that with Honda. They have a great design that will last forever. The way they operate is after 10 years they quit selling indivual parts and like to sell assemblies and will not work on your bike if it is 10 years old or older. Hence, if you have a $20 part break on a 1998 bike, you will have to purchase a $2900 assembly to keep your bike on the road and have an INDY do the work for you. But then their bike don't break down, so that is their survival plan. They perfer to sell you a new bike and since you haven't had trouble in 10 years, you will probably consider it.

Just the ramblings of a 57 year old riding Harleys, Yamas, Hondas and now Vic since 1976.:crzy:
 
#27 ·
... it had to remain true to what made it so popular, and that was the antiquated design behind the drive train...
... their fit and finish is one of the highest qualities of any product...
... So-- Are they an inferior product???? Yes, but by design and not quality...
Sorry, but I cannot follow you at all on that.
If you by fit and finish mean how nice the paint job is, then yes, they probably have that. But that is not a measure of QUALITY. That is just putting lipstick on a pig [pun intended].

Quality is all of what you cannot see. It has nothing to do with their antiquated design, but that a lot of their riders would be a whole lot happier and have a lot more cash left in their pockets if they would use better quality bearings, move away from the cheap press-fit crank etc.

The key thing here is that it is not an engineering issue.
The solutions are known - heck, they used better components in the past and moved away from them.

It is a business decision. They CHOSE to increase their profit margin by lowering build cost and increasing service/parts business by artificially reducing the lifespan of their engines past what their design would allow for if built with decent quality parts.
 
#28 ·
well, they do use some nice lipstick. Seriously, the paint and chrome is better than any bike (JMHO). I have a friend that had a 2002 Shadow he bought new. It has 25,000 miles and he has babied it from the day he bought it new. It was not in nearly as good of condition as my UC that had 40,000 miles. In looks, tightness, feel, my chrome had no pitting, ---things like that. He had "plastic chrome".

They are going backwards in the drive train--again, JMHO. The 103 is not as good as the 96CID and the 96 is not as good as the 88, and none of them are as good as the EVO. They insist on sticking with the primary chain while my Vic has gears. Their idea of improving is "self adjusting tensioners" instead of changing to gears. Their customer base likes it that way and don't mind 5,000 service expenses. Yes, they are cutting corners, but who isn't? The V Rod is an example of what they can do, but most of their buyers don't want it. Harleys have good resale compared to most bikes, but the V Rod falls just like a Honda--- and it is their most advanced machine even though that design is over a decade old.

They are having to fight with the EPA and they are having a hard time copeing. I am not defending them, but they have backed themselves into a corner with no way out.

I still like my Vic over Harley.
 
#30 ·
well, they do use some nice lipstick. Seriously, the paint and chrome is better than any bike (JMHO). I have a friend that had a 2002 Shadow he bought new. It has 25,000 miles and he has babied it from the day he bought it new. It was not in nearly as good of condition as my UC that had 40,000 miles. In looks, tightness, feel, my chrome had no pitting
You are comparing a $9,000 motorcycle to a $20,000 motorcycle. It had damned well better have higher quality paint and chrome than a Honda Shadow.
 
#33 · (Edited)
My first bike was my second ebay purchase. 90 heritage. That little 80" evo was rock solid quiet and strong. The primary just couldn't hold its mud. Otherwise I'd probably still have it. But certainly the twin cam 04 fatboy I had was no comparison. A clunky noisy mess that handled terribly. It also had a bad seal right after purchase. Nice H-D quality. I've owned my last Harley unless I either built an open primary Evo or bought an S&S equipped custom. I doubt either. I was dead set on a Raider until I was pleasantly shocked by this high-ball. The plasticky raider fenders just are plain gross.

Just for giggles a pic of my old girl. She was so much a better bike than the 04:



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#38 ·
Let's hope Polaris keeps this in mind.. I'll pay for top notch gears and bearings at the trade off of a terminal plug hanging off my left controls.. Though I have to admit I was like "ok what the heck! Is this connector really necessary hanging right off the hand control?!?!" Hehe.. the things you notice after knowing every inch of a fairly clean Harley setup.

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#39 ·
I was led here via Harley. My V satr is getting boring so i was looking to get a commuter. or maybe a Dyna Wide then i read this. Much of what you guys are saying is reflected in this article.

http://www.jamesrussellpublishing.biz/beforeyoubuyharley.html

Really scared me off the BT twin cam. I am not a wrencher. I am used to trouble free bullet proof metrics. The guy is over the top but a Google search of his claims led me to various HD forums where they proved to be true. however he praised the XL1200...So I went to the local HD dealership and test rode a 1200 sporty. and a Dyna... to compare with my V Star 1300. The visceral feeling was there. the Sportster was raw compared to my bike. but ok. Then I saw a used 09 King Pin ($10K 9900 miles) and decided to try that.......W O W was all I could think of. The bike fit me like a glove. (5"8" 155" ) This must be what a 1900 Raider must feel like. raw power yet so much more "refined" and tighter feeling than the HD.

Which led me here to research the brand . Because now a Victory King Pin is in the mix......
 
#40 · (Edited)
Harleys never claimed to be maintainence free. The tentioner issues are well known in the community. I have owned 5 Harleys and they are not even close to the Vic in design, but then again keeping up with modern technology is not what they shoot for. I, too had a boring-- but fast Honda VTX. It had its issues with the grounding problems. Honda chooses to paint their frames and then bolts the ground wire to it. The tires would not pass inspection at 3800 miles. They come at one pressure from the factory and that is according to the max PSI for the wheels, but the suggested PSI for the tires are completely different, so the consumer is a loser either way. Cars require the timing belt be changed frequently or else their engine will explode.

If it has moving parts, it will give you a problem at some point. Most buy motorcycles for the fun and not the economy. Great mileage is a benefit, but not the reason most people ride. All fun comes at a price.
 
#41 ·
While I agree all mechanical products can and do have issues. When the manufacturer is aware of those issues and replaces good parts with lesser parts despite the weak points where the good parts are needed all because they rightly have researched the data that the first owners will not put many miles on and likely will not suffer the failure or need a belt or clutch cable and buy another before these expensive repairs are needed.

I know no other product that requires an extended warranty more than a Harley Davidson TC. I don;t buy them on anything and am way ahead after a few homes cars PCs appliances bikes for 30 years. I would not buy a product where the extended warranty is necessary IF you intend on keeping it more than three years.

Then there is the issue of having a bike off the street for weeks to do the work because the HD shop is too busy making money doing oil changes, bolting on windshields and aftermarket pipes where the real money is.

It just doesn't sound like a club I want to join. I want the bike but not the hassles. Hence why I believe now if you want a BT American Iron. The Victory is the smart choice if not the "cool" choice becasue it will never be a Harley. Neither will a Raider. But it will out perform Harley on the street and in the shop. Resale is not as good but the bikes are not as expensive on the front end and deliver huge discounts so in real dollars resale could be equal.

I paid $8500 for my bike OTD before the $300 sales tax and $35 title fees) I will likely get around $4500. That a cost to ride of about $1000 a year. If I had purchased a $17,000 Harley in 2007 I would be looking at a minimum of $13,000 to match the same losses.

Many pay $300 a MONTH to ride then sell early for payoff.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Don't misunderstand me. I own a Vic and I am happy about it, but folks like HD and there is nothing wrong with it. People pay $5000 for a Rolex watch that does not keep time as good as a citizen that costs less than 10% and the Rolex requires regular cleaning and maintenance. And they like it that way! Harleys are like that. The chain tensioner requires attention and most know it. They don't mind paying $200 for a 5000 mile service. It is more than just an oil change if done right.

Myself----I think they made a big mistake when they left the EVO and many Harley guys agree.

Vics are not immune from issues. There is a member throwing a tantrum about his clutch issue here on the board. Post something good about Vic customer service and I promise you he will respond in minutes.

As the Harley guys say--"if it has wheels or boobs, it is going to give you problems at some time". How true!
 
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