I mourn for my country

[BBob]

Although Obama and his fellow Democrats repeatedly call on wealthier Americans to pay their "fair share," they never specify what percentage of the nation's tax burden the wealthy would have to bear. As matters stand, the top 1 percent of American households paid 39 percent of income taxes in 2009, according to the most recent data compiled by the Congressional Budget Office, and the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid 64 percent.

I've been asked why I stick up for the rich when I am not rich.

It's for the same reason I stick up for smokers who pay, in my opinion, more than their fair share in taxes by simply buying a product and then those tax money's are used to help someone else.

Well, if the cause is just and right, shouldn't everyone bear the burden and not just the smokers?

The rich are only 1-2% of this country's population. Our system of government is suppose to prevent 98% from sticking it to 2%.

And you know it won't stop there. In short order that 2% will soon become the top 50% because just taxing the top 2% more isn't going to cut it. Plus, unlike the to top 2%, the other 48% can't just move away and say screw this to unfair taxation.

Then eventually, sooner than later, it will be the top 70% who get hammered.

I've seen this kind of thing my entire life. They, being the powers that be, never make sweeping changes the way they really want to. They do it incrementally; not unlike the frog in the pot of water.

Just in case someone hasn't heard about the frog... a frog will jump right out of a pot of hot water but if you put it in when the water is cool and then turn on the stove; the frog will stay in it - even when pot starts boiling and kills it because it got used to it slowly.

This is exactly what our government is doing to all of us now. This is not a dem or pub issue. It's an American issue and unless we fight it together; we will all lose. Not tomorrow or even next year; but sooner than most of us might think.

[saddlebag]

Originally Posted by BBob

Hey Guys,

I've been thinking about this for a while now and I think I was wrong to call those who vote for obama scum sucking traitors. This is still America and for the time being all Americans have the God given right to vote for whomever they think will do the best job.

I still believe the way I believe but calling obama voters names like that was wrong of me.

Calling each other names here is wrong too. I am asking for both sides to stop doing it if you can. [B]

Thanks B.

[saddlebag]

Originally Posted by BBob

Although Obama and his fellow Democrats repeatedly call on wealthier Americans to pay their "fair share," they never specify what percentage of the nation's tax burden the wealthy would have to bear. As matters stand, the top 1 percent of American households paid 39 percent of income taxes in 2009, according to the most recent data compiled by the Congressional Budget Office, and the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid 64 percent.

The problems with your argument are:

a) The rich make FAR more than 39% more than the average Joe. Take Robme for example. Here is a guy that made roughly $20 million last year. This is about 400x what the average worker made. And he pays about an 8% lower Federal tax rate than the guy making $50k a year.

b) We Americans pay a lot more taxes than Federal Income tax. The people who want you to believe that the gov't is too mean to the rich never calculate the percentage of what the ordinary guy pays compared to the rich guy. For instance, a guy making $50k/year pays about 5% on ALL his income into SSI. Someone making $20 million only pays 5% on the first $100k or $5k on $20 million which works out to a 0.025% rate. Pretty sweet dontcha think?

[saddlebag]

Originally Posted by Lance

Let's see, the Obama plan...

1. Keep spending like crazy, create more programs that require even more spending.

Disproven. All ready gave you the Investors Business Daily article that showed that the deficit is falling what some feel is too fast. Also, the president does not approve the budget, Congress does, so if you like give credit to your obstructionists, but don't keep spewing misinformation.

Originally Posted by Lance

2. Grow gov't, and require more and tax money to support it.

You haven't shown any gov't growth. Saying so doesn't make it so.

Originally Posted by Lance

3. Keep borrowing money until our credit rating is degraded a few more times, then print money to pay for everything.

When an entity is in debt, they either borrow or go broke. I think most would prefer we continue to borrow while we pay off our debts. As long as we have folks lining up to loan us money at an interest rate of near zero, why wouldn't we?

[Azdave]

Boehner says 98% of what we wanted. 98% and that dbag says no. Why did he say no? Simple it would have assured Obama of reelection. So McConnell tells Boehner table this until WE thebalmightnRepublican Party win in November so Boehner the biggest wimp, crybaby, wuss on the planet caves. Rating goes down but who gives a shit about the USA you guys needed to win the WH?

Then you run the 2nd biggest dbag on the planet and get blown out. Now if Mitch and Boehner don't get reelected life will be great.

BTW Lance read the debt reduction plan. It was loaded, loaded, loaded with SPending Cuts!!!!!! 98% who would turn that kind of deal down?

[ALStensby]

First off, glad to see some civility may have fallen upon this thread. Disagree all you'd like, but please do so as adults.

Originally Posted by saddlebag

The problems with your argument are:

a) The rich make FAR more than 39% more than the average Joe. Take Robme for example. Here is a guy that made roughly $20 million last year. This is about 400x what the average worker made. And he pays about an 8% lower Federal tax rate than the guy making $50k a year.

b) We Americans pay a lot more taxes than Federal Income tax. The people who want you to believe that the gov't is too mean to the rich never calculate the percentage of what the ordinary guy pays compared to the rich guy. For instance, a guy making $50k/year pays about 5% on ALL his income into SSI. Someone making $20 million only pays 5% on the first $100k or $5k on $20 million which works out to a 0.025% rate. Pretty sweet dontcha think?

As to this, the first portion of your statement is essentially correct. I'd covered this earlier. The top 1% isn't really making "far" more than 39% if you're going by percentage since they are about 42% of the financial wealth. But if you convert that to dollars? Considering the GDP of the US is roughly $16T, every percentage is a HUGE number.

Also, the lower tax rate is more of a statistical anomaly than a reality. While I am in agreement that "the wealthy" should have to pay their fair share, simply raising taxes on them is not the answer. The tax system itself needs an overhaul. Especially at the higher levels, not the lower levels being talked about. Is $250K a lot of money? Yep. But they're the ones getting hit too. Ever notice the examples of lower paying money are the SUPER rich? The definition of "income" has been redefined over the years so certain things get taxed at a lower rate. Why would that be? Because those who stand to gain from it have the money to make it happen.

In regards to your second statement, SSI isn't the right angle to take. It's more an insurance payment than a tax. The reason there is a cap on what's paid in is because there's also a cap on what's paid out.

[saddlebag]

Originally Posted by ALStensby

As to this, the first portion of your statement is essentially correct. I'd covered this earlier. The top 1% isn't really making "far" more than 39% if you're going by percentage since they are about 42% of the financial wealth.

If they possess 42% of the wealth, but are only 1% of the population, that means that on a per person basis, they are really make FAR more IMHO.

Originally Posted by ALStensby

Also, the lower tax rate is more of a statistical anomaly than a reality. While I am in agreement that "the wealthy" should have to pay their fair share, simply raising taxes on them is not the answer.

True, we need an economy based on wealth creation rather than services, but given where we are, we have to get the money from somewhere. Earlier I cited a stat that 80% of the population of the US possesses a mere 7% of the wealth. People can be mad at those people for being in their predicament if they like, but getting them to pay for multi-trillion defense outlays and decade long wars ain't gonna happen.

Originally Posted by ALStensby

The tax system itself needs an overhaul.

I agree. I think Neil Bortz is a moron, but he was right about one thing, converting our tax system to a consumption based (Fair Tax) model is the single best thing we could ever do.

Reasons it will never happen:

1) Individuals will hold power over their tax rates by their own consumption decisions.

2) Politicians will hold no sway over any constituency because there would be no deductions, you spend X dollars, you pay Y tax on it, end of story.

3) It would put a lot of people dependent on the complexity of our tax system out of work.

[Lance]

Originally Posted by BBob

Hey Guys,

I've been thinking about this for a while now and I think I was wrong to call those who vote for obama scum sucking traitors. This is still America and for the time being all Americans have the God given right to vote for whomever they think will do the best job.

I still believe the way I believe but calling obama voters names like that was wrong of me.

Calling each other names here is wrong too. I am asking for both sides to stop doing it if you can.

In the spirit of motorcycling brotherhood and our love of Victory's; a spirited discussion is good but this name calling has got to stop. It's juvenile and I am as guilty as anyone for doing it.

Nuff said.

A-hole.

(Sticks and stones...)

[Lance]

Originally Posted by saddlebag

If they possess 42% of the wealth, but are only 1% of the population, that means that on a per person basis, they are really make FAR more IMHO.



True, we need an economy based on wealth creation rather than services, but given where we are, we have to get the money from somewhere. Earlier I cited a stat that 80% of the population of the US possesses a mere 7% of the wealth. People can be mad at those people for being in their predicament if they like, but getting them to pay for multi-trillion defense outlays and decade long wars ain't gonna happen.

I agree. I think Neil Bortz is a moron, but he was right about one thing, converting our tax system to a consumption based (Fair Tax) model is the single best thing we could ever do.

Reasons it will never happen:

1) Individuals will hold power over their tax rates by their own consumption decisions.

2) Politicians will hold no sway over any constituency because there would be no deductions, you spend X dollars, you pay Y tax on it, end of story.

3) It would put a lot of people dependent on the complexity of our tax system out of work.

A consumption tax would hurt the poor the most, except that the plan is to give the poor a tax credit to get that money back, so it'll just stick it to the middle class, nice plan.

[Lance]

Originally Posted by ALStensby

First off, glad to see some civility may have fallen upon this thread. Disagree all you'd like, but please do so as adults.
.

And I guess YOU are the arbiter of what adults can and can't say... f you.

You thought/speech police make a nice fit in Obama's world.