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Old 11-29-2012, 09:17 AM   #601
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-Unemployment roughly doubled in about two years ('07-'09). When he was sworn in, it was at roughly 8% and climbing fast. That stabilized in a bit over six months and started to decline reaching where it was then. I'd say unemployment at least leveling off after a decline is better than the rapid incline it was on. This is an economic improvement from where it was.

-Gross Domestic Production hit a low of about $13.9T at end of Q1 '09. Q3 '12 was $15.8T. This too is an economic improvement from where it was.

Both ISM Manufacturing and PMI Composite indexes were at roughly 35 in '09 and currently sit at 51.7 (and has been as high as 60). FYI, above 50 generally means manufacturing is expanding.

-Housing prices are no longer in a freefall over all, stabilizing mostly and even improving in some areas.

- January 20th, 2009, the stock market was at the following points: Dow/7950, Nasdaq/1440 and S&P 805. Today? Dow is 12,985. Nasdaq is 2992. S&P is 1409. These are all improvements.

-Even the abstract items like Consumer Confidence has seen an increase.


Now. I'm making no statement of causation, only correlation. You asked people to dispute that the country has gone downhill economically over the last four years which couldn't be further from the truth. By and large, it has stabilized and/or improved. And hopefully it will continue to do so. If you don't like him, that's fine. I'm kind of "meh" on him myself. But to do so based on incorrect information is simply choosing to ignorant.
"You're all so ignorant, the sky isn't falling", another bit of Al wisdom...

Ah, yeah, the sky IS falling. You like statistics but can't see what's right in front of you... reality.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:19 AM   #602
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Here's some more gun control / gun owners rights information.
1) Obama said he would not sign any international arms treaty that diminished 2nd admendment rights for gun owners in the U.S.

2) It's estimated there around 300 million firarms in the U.S. There from 70 -80 million gun owners in the U.S. There only about 4.3 million NRA members; only about 1.6% of all gun owners. These statistics are from the NRA.

3) Before Obama was elected in '08 the NRA convinced gun owners into believing Obama was going to restrict gun sales. Gun sales went through the roof. After he was elected, Obama signed only two gun control bills. One made it legal for someone with a concealed carry permit to carry a gun on an Amtrac train. The 2nd bill made it legal for someone with a permit to carry in a national park. This is all he has done in regards to gun control.
So then the NRA sread the word, Obama is waiting to get re-elected before taking away all the guns. Again, gun sales went through the roof before the election. Sturm Ruger had to refuse any new orders because they couldn't keep up with the supply.
The idea Obama was waiting for a 2nd term to enact restrictive gun control was pretty stupid, because his re-election was not a sure thing. I think that if Romney didn't get caught on film saying he didn't care about half of Americans, he would have been elected.

So why does the NRA do this? Many people believe their main purpose is advocacy for 2nd admendment rights. It's not. The NRA's main purpose is marketing gun and hunting and shooting accessories. The more guns sold, the more firearm related merchandise the sell. Sturm Ruger even paid the NRA for the rights to sell NRA edition guns.

As I said before, all these scare tactics are just another way for politicians divide us with a wedge issue. And as far as people needing guns to prevent a government takeover, don't kid yourself. This is not the 1770s. It's not 1861. A bunch of militia members are not going to stand up to our modern day law enforcement let alone the military. They won't even have time to organize before they'll be shut down. One platoon of Marine Force Re-con would wipe out 100 civilians playing armyman.
Relax, no one out there in power is out to take your guns away. Even after the shootings in Arizona and Colorado, gun control didn't even come up in the campaign, no matter how hard the NRA tried to make it happen.
I've been a gun owner for about 45 years, and am ex-member of the NRA, because of their political views.
Oh my... somebody is SO full of Obama Koolaid... yeah, he's all for gun rights... comical.

Bugkiller, you've gotta kill that bug in your brain, it's eating away the part that lets you see the real world.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:19 AM   #603
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Great argument Al, "this is how it goes".......... if you don't see a problem as we get into this trillions at a time increase in debt you just can't see.

THE GOVERNMENT SPENDS TOO MUCH. IT NEEDS TO BE CUT.

It's not that hard to see..... and this pissy little tax increase is just a game... you seem to think this game can continue forever but there is a day of reckoning.
I've never disagreed with your assertion that spending needs to be cut. I've actually stated multiple times that I agree with this stance. My statement was simply that if you think things would be any different in regards to spending between either party (or either candidate), you're sorely mistaken. History has proven otherwise.

Also, as an FYI, my name is Adam, not Al (see signature).
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:31 AM   #604
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Now don't go tryin facts on these guys. Reality has no bearing on their thought processes. They follow the Rush hymnal and anyone with a penchant for fact based information is singing way off key. Just mentioning the word Obama in their church is blasphemy, though like true zealots, none can tell you why. They all have their talking points down like well trained parrots though. I always enjoy going to the zoo...
You're right... conservatives hate Obama because Rush Limbaugh told them to.

It has nothing to do with:

He's a socialist/communist or some variation... just 'learn' a little about him, it's clear.

He's a pathelogical lier, don't ask for examples, just read any transcript from anything he's ever said.

He wants a MASSIVE fed. gov't.

He wants MASSIVE fed. gov't give-a-ways.

He wants ever increasing taxes to redistribute wealth.

He seems to have NO idea that increasing debt is a problem.

He's anti-gun, anti-Constitution, anti-America, anti-Freedom, pro-Islam....

He's dividing this country on class lines more and more as he attempts to take from the rich and give to the poor...

There's more, but I can't remember what else Rush told me, I've got to go listen to the radio.

P.S. Don't bother doing a point-by-point 'saddlebag review' of how everything I said is just wrong and Obama is just the opposite of all the above... that's a world YOU can live in if you like but some of us can see what's in front of us.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:31 AM   #605
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"You're all so ignorant, the sky isn't falling", another bit of Al wisdom...

Ah, yeah, the sky IS falling. You like statistics but can't see what's right in front of you... reality.
I'm quite in touch with reality, unlike you. I have provided facts that are historically accurate. You provide parroted ramblings of conspiracy theory. And yet you question my basis in reality?

Instead of diverting as you always do, how about you try a new approach? Use facts like some of us choose to do. The poster made the claim that the country has gone downhill economically over the last four years. I provided facts (or statistics as you'd like to call them) that refuted this claim. I made no claims of causation.

I welcome you to provide facts that show that the current economic situation for the country as a whole is worse off than four years ago.

Hell..there are even fewer government jobs than there were four years ago (from about 22.5M to 21.8M)
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:35 AM   #606
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I've never disagreed with your assertion that spending needs to be cut. I've actually stated multiple times that I agree with this stance. My statement was simply that if you think things would be any different in regards to spending between either party (or either candidate), you're sorely mistaken. History has proven otherwise.

Also, as an FYI, my name is Adam, not Al (see signature).
If you don't think Romney would have begun to cut I think you're wrong, he wouldn't have been able to get away with such a hard line and clear promise to do it and not do it.... doesn't matter now, half of elected someone who promised never to cut anything.

P.S. I like Al, what's in a name.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:41 AM   #607
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I'm quite in touch with reality, unlike you. I have provided facts that are historically accurate. You provide parroted ramblings of conspiracy theory. And yet you question my basis in reality?

Instead of diverting as you always do, how about you try a new approach? Use facts like some of us choose to do. The poster made the claim that the country has gone downhill economically over the last four years. I provided facts (or statistics as you'd like to call them) that refuted this claim. I made no claims of causation.

I welcome you to provide facts that show that the current economic situation for the country as a whole is worse off than four years ago.

Hell..there are even fewer government jobs than there were four years ago (from about 22.5M to 21.8M)
I imagine that you are right and I am wrong... the debt isn't massive and continuing to grow, our credit hasn't been downgraded twice for the first time in history, unemployment isn't really high, our healthcare system isn't on track to implode with a crazy new plan... everything is just fine... it's getting better every day..... Obama is on the right track.... just give him 4 more years..... the rich are evil..... Obama is the smartest man alive........ Michelle is pretty....

Oh to be so blind and think you can see.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:46 AM   #608
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Oh my... somebody is SO full of Obama Koolaid... yeah, he's all for gun rights... comical.

Bugkiller, you've gotta kill that bug in your brain, it's eating away the part that lets you see the real world.
You are one of the worst cases of Confirmation Bias I've ever seen. At what point in that post did Bugkiller say President Obama is "all for gun rights"? He simply made the statement (a factual one, at that) that he only signed two pieces of legislation in regards to firearms and both were expansion of firearm owner rights. I'm not overly familiar with legislation in regards to them even though I own one myself, but I'm not familiar with any legislation that he pushed for OR against firearms.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:49 AM   #609
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If you don't think Romney would have begun to cut I think you're wrong, he wouldn't have been able to get away with such a hard line and clear promise to do it and not do it.... doesn't matter now, half of elected someone who promised never to cut anything.

P.S. I like Al, what's in a name.
Al works for me if it matters to you. As for Romney, he did promise cuts. He also promised expansions in other areas. The chances of an overall cut were slim, if at all. Obama made the same empty claims. That's politics.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:56 AM   #610
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I imagine that you are right and I am wrong... the debt isn't massive and continuing to grow, our credit hasn't been downgraded twice for the first time in history, unemployment isn't really high, our healthcare system isn't on track to implode with a crazy new plan... everything is just fine... it's getting better every day..... Obama is on the right track.... just give him 4 more years..... the rich are evil..... Obama is the smartest man alive........ Michelle is pretty....

Oh to be so blind and think you can see.
More diverting. I put my request to you as simple as possible and assumed you'd be able to understand it as well as comply. Apparently, I was too hopeful. Provide facts that the economy is worse today than it was four years ago. I've asked you twice now to do this.

The debt sucks, yes. And it's getting worse. So does the credit downgrade. But that's not the economy which was the question. It has an effect, but it's not THE economy. Unemployment is really high...but it's in a better situation than it was four years ago. The healthcare industry will not implode. It will certainly change. Probably both for better and worse depending on one's own situation.
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