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Old 12-10-2012, 12:41 PM   #1
CrossRoader
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Default Power Commander and Dyno tune benefits?

I have a new Cross Roads Classic and I am trying to improve torque and power particularly at the low end. I am running D&D pipes with the Vic performance air filter and the Stage I flash but after lots of research and reading I have decided that I will do a Lloyds cam upgrade to get a bit more grunt.

Unfortunately I think I have just missed one of Kevin X's cam parties here in California and it will be presumably be a while before he is out here again.

The bike is running OK but not perfect. I does have a bit more power than stock but there is some popping on both upshifts and deceleration Nothing too bad but it would be nice to get the bike running optimally.

My question (after a long winded intro ) is what benefits will I get if I do a PC V install and have it dyno tuned while I wait for the cam upgrade? I expect it will run smoother but will there be any performance improvement?

BTW I did call Arizona Victory and they basically dismissed the Lloyds cams in favour of Andrews 483's and also said they need to remove the motor to do the job properly so it will be a $2500 bill

Any help or advice would be appreciated.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:11 PM   #2
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I guess thinking about the economics of it. The PC is needed for the cams install so its only the first dyno tune (maybe $300) that's an additional cost as I assume I would have to get it redone after the cam install
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:35 PM   #3
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I have a similar setup (RPW pipes, Vic High Performance Air Filter) but I have the PCV and I had it dyno tuned. I would imagine that the dyno tuned PCV would run a little better and make a little more HP but in reality I doubt it makes that much of a difference. I bought the PCV because I'm planning on adding cams in the future. But most of the information that I've seen posted by KevinX seems to say that the stage 1 flash is adequate for your setup.

Let me say this. If you're trying to eliminate the popping with the PCV it probably won't work. My bike even after having a custom map built would still pop like crazy on shifts and decel. The tuner even tried to really increase the fuel at the closed throttle positions and it still popped really bad. I just bought the IAV from LLoydz to try to eliminate the popping and I am still working on getting it adjusted correctly. But to date the IAV has been the most effective tool that I have used to eliminate the popping during shifts and decel.

I am interested in hearing more feedback about the andrews cams though. Up until now everything that I have heard about cams has basically been LLoydz cams. I wonder why the dealership recommended the Andrews cams? They could be interesting because they look considerably cheaper than the LLoydz cams.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:00 PM   #4
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The Andrews 438 cams require more than stock compression to function adequately, and even with a built motor, the S&S 495's are better. That being said, neither will work in your motor. They were designed before the newer closed loop 106 motors came out, and I don't believe will work with the cam carriers. Your only choice in a cam upgrade really is the VM1-DR cams from Lloydz. However, in my experience, they push the TQ curve higher and longer, so the rev xtend feature of the PC-V or Lloydz reprogrammed ECU would be a must. You will lose some low end torque with them too. Some of that can be reclaimed with Lloydz variable timing wheel (gear).

As for the labor, the motor does NOT need to come out. The shop that quoted you $2500 is clearly not aware of this fact. They also aren't aware that the 438's won't fit either.

As for the PC-V, for the price of the dyno tune you'll be paying for, just buy the piggyback auto tune module, and never have to pay for a dyno at all.

As an aside, I have the Lloydz VM1-DR cams, variable intake (Vision only), Ness twin sucker intake, Lloydz timing wheel advanced 2 degrees, and a PC-V with Autotune. My bike does not "pop".. EVER.... It took both the variable intake and the timing wheel for me to regain the low end torque I lost with the cams.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd try the new Cobra Power Pro CVT, and keep the setup you have, since low end torque is important to you. I would also make sure that you do indeed have the stage 1 flash loaded on your ECU.
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Last edited by Gunslinger; 12-10-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
The Andrews 438 cams require more than stock compression to function adequately, and even with a built motor, the S&S 495's are better. That being said, neither will work in your motor. They were designed before the newer closed loop 106 motors came out, and I don't believe will work with the cam carriers. Your only choice in a cam upgrade really is the VM1-DR cams from Lloydz. However, in my experience, they push the TQ curve higher and longer, so the rev xtend feature of the PC-V or Lloydz reprogrammed ECU would be a must. You will lose some low end torque with them too. Some of that can be reclaimed with Lloydz variable timing wheel (gear).

As for the labor, the motor does NOT need to come out. The shop that quoted you $2500 is clearly not aware of this fact. They also aren't aware that the 438's won't fit either.

As for the PC-V, for the price of the dyno tune you'll be paying for, just buy the piggyback auto tune module, and never have to pay for a dyno at all.

As an aside, I have the Lloydz VM1-DR cams, variable intake (Vision only), Ness twin sucker intake, Lloydz timing wheel advanced 2 degrees, and a PC-V with Autotune. My bike does not "pop".. EVER.... It took both the variable intake and the timing wheel for me to regain the low end torque I lost with the cams.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd try the new Cobra Power Pro CVT, and keep the setup you have, since low end torque is important to you. I would also make sure that you do indeed have the stage 1 flash loaded on your ECU.
Well this may change things. The whole point of adding cams was to improve low end torque which I understood the Lloyds cams did. Your opinion/experience is the opposite so I am on the fence again. I seem to spend a fair amount of time between 2500 and 3500 and I find the XR a bit lacking compared to the Thunderbird 1700 I had before the Vic

Arizona Victory claim to do a lot of cam jobs and are quite well regarded by some members here. The claim the Andrews are the best and to "do the job properly" you need to remove the engine hence the $2500 charge.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:19 PM   #6
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It seems all the advice you have so far is bad advice. I have an idea... Call Lloyd and get some good advice.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:19 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossRoader View Post
Well this may change things. The whole point of adding cams was to improve low end torque which I understood the Lloyds cams did. Your opinion/experience is the opposite so I am on the fence again. I seem to spend a fair amount of time between 2500 and 3500 and I find the XR a bit lacking compared to the Thunderbird 1700 I had before the Vic

Arizona Victory claim to do a lot of cam jobs and are quite well regarded by some members here. The claim the Andrews are the best and to "do the job properly" you need to remove the engine hence the $2500 charge.
Both KevinX and Rylan Vos can do cams in less than 2 hours, without pulling the motor. Others have done their own using the same process. The cams will definitely NOT add low end torque. They will enhance torque and horsepower above 3500rpm though, and where the stock cams fall off dead at 4500 rpm, the VM1-DR cams keep getting stronger, hence the need to increase your rev limiter, as it shuts off at 5500rpm in 5th and less in 6th.

I have done roll on comparisons with two friends that both have Visions with nothing more than Ness Big Honkers, twin sucker intake, and a fuel controller, and they both could outrun me until 3500rpm, at which point, the gap starts narrowing and I start regaining ground. keep in mind, that's a 5th and 6th gear roll on. If I start with my RPM's at 3500, I take them. So, it's what you want... horsepower, or cruising / roll on torque. That was before I added the variable intake stack and timing wheel. Now roll ons are pretty close. With the X bike, you don't have the option of the intake stack.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
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It seems all the advice you have so far is bad advice. I have an idea... Call Lloyd and get some good advice.
Agreed.

You won't get a hold of Lloyd this week, he's hanging out with me all week. You know, I pretty much always answer the phone, or call back very soon and am glad to help sort out performance questions, even if I'm not doing the work. I am the #2 Lloydz dealer in the world and averaged over one cam/fuel controller install a week this year, so I've seen a done quite a few Vics. One five minute call can answer a week-long internet thread.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:55 AM   #9
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I've been hearing some good things about the timing advance wheel. I may just give one a try since I also use the PCV and the Lloydz site says it will compliment the PCV since it will adjust timing under 2500 and PCV won't.

I did the cams myself. KevinX gave some tips and tricks which enabled me to tackle the job with basic hand tools. If you consider yourself to be a competent shade tree mechanic; you can do the job. You don't need to pull the engine. The backbone will bend enough with leverage to lift out the rear cam and carrier so you can install a new one.

Definitely give Rylan a call to get the straight scoop from someone who does this for a living.

A guy by the name of Phil64 did a good write up on how to do the cam swap. Check it out: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B95B...fUQ/edit?pli=1
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicbuilder View Post
I pretty much always answer the phone
OK... Call Lloyd OR Rylan. Didn't mean to overlook you.
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