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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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Default Seeking Auto Tune Understanding

Hi Guys,

I am seeking some understanding of how the AT work and if it does why is it no recommended by some. Here are a few questions:

1. Now that the bike was dynoed, would the autotune improve on what was done on the dyno?

2. Would it give me better fuel economy with normal everyday riding and more power when riding aggressively?

3. Does the autotune require me to make the initial entries in the table or does it get that from each cell of the PCV to form its base? If I supply the numbers, where do I get them from?

4. After a few hundred miles of using the AT, should I save those now modified cells to the PCV and disable the autotune or just let it run?

5. If the autotune further improves the map/performance of the bike from when it was dynoed, why would some say no to the autotune?

6. Is the purpose of the autotune to make the bike run as close to perfect as possible in any condition because it is constantly tuning?

Although Kyle (Kyle) did my dyno and the bike runs great, His recommendation was to sell since my bike is now dynoed. But if it makes his tune even better, why not use it? I think I would like for it to be as close to perfect as possible if possible.

I understand it is my decision. I am a network engineer. I value the opinion of the educated, experienced and techees.

Thanks,

Atlanta, GA
'12 XC: '12 XC: Lloydz VM1-Touring Cams, Adjustable Timing System, Idle Air Valve, Air Filter, 1/4 turn throttle adapter / HOTVIC Debaffled Exhaust / PC-V / Adjustable Lowering Link / KewlHeel shifter / Victory HID / Klock Werks / Infinity Kappa 2-Way 6"x9" speakers (2 pr) and 3-Way 6.5 speakers / Boss Tweeters / Alpine PDX-F6 Amp / Tune Tapper Hidden Antenna / Powerlet outlet / Stebel Horn.
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barned01 View Post
Hi Guys,

I am seeking some understanding of how the AT work and if it does why is it no recommended by some. Here are a few questions:

1. Now that the bike was dynoed, would the autotune improve on what was done on the dyno?
Yes

Quote:
2. Would it give me better fuel economy with normal everyday riding and more power when riding aggressively?
Yes

Quote:
3. Does the autotune require me to make the initial entries in the table or does it get that from each cell of the PCV to form its base? If I supply the numbers, where do I get them from?
It's quicker if you start from a base map that is close, but starting from a "zero" map works very well also. The end result will be the same after a few imports from the trim tables that it creates
Quote:
4. After a few hundred miles of using the AT, should I save those now modified cells to the PCV and disable the autotune or just let it run?
Initially, you will be importing (accepting) the trims into the main PCV tables. After that, some people choose to disconnect once they get close. However, by doing so, you miss out on the dynamic nature of the unit, where it is still adapting to throttle, load, temp, etc. It takes different fuel requirements to maintain a specific AFR if you are accelerating vs. decelerating, for example
Quote:
5. If the autotune further improves the map/performance of the bike from when it was dynoed, why would some say no to the autotune?
money. then again, no need to dyno tune at all if you had spent that money on the AT to begin with.
Quote:
6. Is the purpose of the autotune to make the bike run as close to perfect as possible in any condition because it is constantly tuning?
The purpose of the AT is to have the bike perform at whatever AFR values you set as targets in your AT unit. I find that 13.5 for at and near WOT, and 14 for cruise is about ideal for performance and mileage
Quote:
Although Kyle (Kyle) did my dyno and the bike runs great, His recommendation was to sell since my bike is now dynoed. But if it makes his tune even better, why not use it? I think I would like for it to be as close to perfect as possible if possible.

I understand it is my decision. I am a network engineer. I value the opinion of the educated, experienced and techees.

Thanks,

2011 Silver/black Vision, Ness Big Honkers, Ness Twin Sucker, PC-V w/AT, Lloydz VM1-DR cams, Lloydz Adj Intake, Lloydz Variable Timing Wheel.

2006 110" (133hp/142tq) +nitrous Kingpin (sold)
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barned01 View Post
Hi Guys,

I am seeking some understanding of how the AT work and if it does why is it no recommended by some. Here are a few questions:

1. Now that the bike was dynoed, would the autotune improve on what was done on the dyno?
Not necessarily. When you call for a specific A/F ratio number, it may not be what was "programmed" before. If the bike ran good before, the dynamic will change as with the AT "On" it will change the programmers values to match what is on the A/F chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barned01 View Post
2. Would it give me better fuel economy with normal everyday riding and more power when riding aggressively?
Again, not necessarily. It all depends on the values on the A/F table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barned01 View Post
3. Does the autotune require me to make the initial entries in the table or does it get that from each cell of the PCV to form its base? If I supply the numbers, where do I get them from?
You should always start with a base map, preferably one close to your setup. You will find these on Power Commander's website or borrow from a buddy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barned01 View Post
4. After a few hundred miles of using the AT, should I save those now modified cells to the PCV and disable the autotune or just let it run?
It doesn't even take that long. You can accept trims with less than 100 miles on the last "accept." After about 300-500 miles of accepting trims, you should have your A/F table dialed in. There are mixed opinions on if you should "Turn Off" the AT at that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barned01 View Post
5. If the autotune further improves the map/performance of the bike from when it was dynoed, why would some say no to the autotune?
Because it does and it doesn't. If you continue to ride in the same area as you formulated your tune, it continues to work just like a closed loop FI system, always making little adjustments attempting to keep it perfect. If you take your bike across country, it will continue to do this but your values will be adjusted, even if only in the allotted range (default is 20). Once you come home, figure about 50 miles if you didn't accept any trims to return to where you left.

Also, some say "No" to the AT because they are done with their mods and don't want another system on the bike that could potentially fail and leave them unable to ride. Plus, sooner or later the O2 (Lambda sensors actually) retail at $100-$150 to replace when they fail. If you don't catch it, it can also create havoc on your trim values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barned01 View Post
6. Is the purpose of the autotune to make the bike run as close to perfect as possible in any condition because it is constantly tuning?
Yes

These are my opinions based on my research. I admit they could be incorrect based on the way I understood the information at the time. I welcome any corrections to my post.

Ride safe.

2011 CrossRoads
D&D pipes, PCV, Llyodz performance filter w/strip in place, Llyod's timing wheel (set +4) and various other visual do dads. :cool:
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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So let's say AT is installed on a bike with some mods. The PCV has a base map but there is popping. The AT is enables and base map is accepted. Over the course of 100 miles the trims are accepted. Does the popping go away?

Atlanta, GA
'12 XC: '12 XC: Lloydz VM1-Touring Cams, Adjustable Timing System, Idle Air Valve, Air Filter, 1/4 turn throttle adapter / HOTVIC Debaffled Exhaust / PC-V / Adjustable Lowering Link / KewlHeel shifter / Victory HID / Klock Werks / Infinity Kappa 2-Way 6"x9" speakers (2 pr) and 3-Way 6.5 speakers / Boss Tweeters / Alpine PDX-F6 Amp / Tune Tapper Hidden Antenna / Powerlet outlet / Stebel Horn.
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 10:18 PM
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No. To reduce the popping you need to increase the AF number in the range of the popping.

Ride safe.


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2011 CrossRoads
D&D pipes, PCV, Llyodz performance filter w/strip in place, Llyod's timing wheel (set +4) and various other visual do dads. :cool:
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 11:14 PM
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Thank you for this thread. I too have been wondering about the AutoTune. From one perspective, a dyno tune is an entire fuel map based on a single event. A single snap shot of the time the bike was on the dyno. From another perspective, will the AutoTune continually adjust the dyno tune map to keep the bike running at its peak? Or will it negate ever getting the dyno tune in the first place?

I've also read that an AutoTune simply wipes away what the dyno tune did in the first place. So, I guess I'm still a bit confused as well. Would I be better off with a dyno to AND an AutoTune or just one or the other.

All the best,

Mark


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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-14-2013, 04:32 AM Thread Starter
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I still don't understand the A/F numbers in the trim tables. Where does it come from? How can I tell what the base map is set for? If I start with all 0's where does it come from?

Atlanta, GA
'12 XC: '12 XC: Lloydz VM1-Touring Cams, Adjustable Timing System, Idle Air Valve, Air Filter, 1/4 turn throttle adapter / HOTVIC Debaffled Exhaust / PC-V / Adjustable Lowering Link / KewlHeel shifter / Victory HID / Klock Werks / Infinity Kappa 2-Way 6"x9" speakers (2 pr) and 3-Way 6.5 speakers / Boss Tweeters / Alpine PDX-F6 Amp / Tune Tapper Hidden Antenna / Powerlet outlet / Stebel Horn.
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-14-2013, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barned01 View Post
So let's say AT is installed on a bike with some mods. The PCV has a base map but there is popping. The AT is enables and base map is accepted. Over the course of 100 miles the trims are accepted. Does the popping go away?
It depends. There are other configuration options at play, and you don't necessarily allow the AT to tune all areas of the map. For example, in the 0% throttle column, other than idle rpm areas, do not let the auto tune make any adjustments. Also, in 2% and 5% columns I restrict how much fuel I allow it to take away. Also, inhibiting enleanment once fuel settings converge helps eliminate popping and backfiring. My bike rarely, if ever, backfires or pops with my PC-V because I don't just make blanket changes across the board.

2011 Silver/black Vision, Ness Big Honkers, Ness Twin Sucker, PC-V w/AT, Lloydz VM1-DR cams, Lloydz Adj Intake, Lloydz Variable Timing Wheel.

2006 110" (133hp/142tq) +nitrous Kingpin (sold)
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-14-2013, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Chicago Mark View Post
Thank you for this thread. I too have been wondering about the AutoTune. From one perspective, a dyno tune is an entire fuel map based on a single event. A single snap shot of the time the bike was on the dyno. From another perspective, will the AutoTune continually adjust the dyno tune map to keep the bike running at its peak? Or will it negate ever getting the dyno tune in the first place?

I've also read that an AutoTune simply wipes away what the dyno tune did in the first place. So, I guess I'm still a bit confused as well. Would I be better off with a dyno to AND an AutoTune or just one or the other.
The auto tune not only relegates a dyno tune as unnecessary, it continuously adapts to changing conditions. You do NOT need a dyno tune if you install the AT. You also do NOT need to start with a "map that is close". Starting from a "zero" map will be just fine. It doesn't take it long (maybe seconds or fractions of a second) to converge on the AFR targets you set. The default values allow up to %20 changes in fuel, but you can increase or decrease that. If a cell requires more than a %20 change, simply import the trim tables, and then you have another %20 percent. Theoretically, you can just leave your base map at all zeros and set your trim enrichment / enleanment from the default of 20% to 100% !! Then, you really wouldn't *have to* ever import trim tables as long as the AT unit is installed.

Anyone telling you that you have to start from some sort of tuned map either doesn't know what they're talking about, or is blowing smoke up your a$$.

2011 Silver/black Vision, Ness Big Honkers, Ness Twin Sucker, PC-V w/AT, Lloydz VM1-DR cams, Lloydz Adj Intake, Lloydz Variable Timing Wheel.

2006 110" (133hp/142tq) +nitrous Kingpin (sold)

Last edited by Gunslinger; 06-14-2013 at 08:24 AM.
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-14-2013, 07:11 AM
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I still don't understand the A/F numbers in the trim tables. Where does it come from? How can I tell what the base map is set for? If I start with all 0's where does it come from?
You don't have the unit yet, or it would all make sense to you once you see it. But, in essence, the PC-V has a single "set" of tables that contain numerical values ranging from -100 to +100. The axis are percent throttle opening vs. rpm. The "maps" are essentially this table filled out with a bunch of values from another source, whether another bike that you copied from, a dyno session, or just hand entered.

The Auto tune has a table also based on rpm and throttle, but these are values set as an air fuel ratio. For example, some of the "default" maps come with all cells filled with the value 13.7, which means 13.7:1 air:fuel ratio. That is the target that the AT unit will try to reach in those cells, and yield the proper fuel value in its "trim tables", which aggregate with the PC-V map ( say +15) to arrive at that target AFR. The trim tables are merely these additions and subtractions. You can then "accept" ( ie. upload, import, etc), into your main PC-V table to make them autonomous from the AT unit. If you haven't seen the units, I think a few screen caps would probably explain it better.

2011 Silver/black Vision, Ness Big Honkers, Ness Twin Sucker, PC-V w/AT, Lloydz VM1-DR cams, Lloydz Adj Intake, Lloydz Variable Timing Wheel.

2006 110" (133hp/142tq) +nitrous Kingpin (sold)
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