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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-09-2014, 08:41 PM Thread Starter
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Default best AFR's for different RPM's

Throughout the WOT power band, does the optimal AFR get progressively leaner as RPM's climb? Like 12.5:[email protected] and like 13.5:[email protected]?

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 07:06 AM
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Throughout the WOT power band, does the optimal AFR get progressively leaner as RPM's climb? Like 12.5:[email protected] and like 13.5:[email protected]?
Let me say at the start that I have no knowledge in this area, I can't carry on an intelligent conversation about AFRs, let alone about engines in general, and so forth.

I am responding only because last week I went to Lloydz Motorwerkz, had a PCV (and Lloydz air filter) installed, and Lloyd himself did a lengthy dyno run to map the PCV's cells. This mapping was done at assorted throttle openings and RPMs, and then repeated for the other cylinder. Attached is the dyno run when he had finished the process, which shows -- it seems to me -- a constant AFR. Lloyd says that the final numbers for my bike were "very good" (given those changes).

So, FWIW and in hopes that this sheds some light on your question, see attached (or, in larger, clearer, form, http://www.billanddot.com/Lloydz-Mot...2014-09-02.pdf on my web site).

Sorry that's all I can offer. Maybe someone else can discuss these results more meaningfully.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lloydz-Motorworks-Dyno-Run-2014-09-02.jpg (37.6 KB, 28 views)

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 07:38 AM Thread Starter
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He was tuning the whole throttle spectrum for each RPM range to maximize power and efficiency at all throttle positions and RPM's. I'm just curious about what the AFR usually looks like at WOT through the powerband.



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Let me say at the start that I have no knowledge in this area, I can't carry on an intelligent conversation about AFRs, let alone about engines in general, and so forth.

I am responding only because last week I went to Lloydz Motorwerkz, had a PCV (and Lloydz air filter) installed, and Lloyd himself did a lengthy dyno run to map the PCV's cells. This mapping was done at assorted throttle openings and RPMs, and then repeated for the other cylinder. Attached is the dyno run when he had finished the process, which shows -- it seems to me -- a constant AFR. Lloyd says that the final numbers for my bike were "very good" (given those changes).

So, FWIW and in hopes that this sheds some light on your question, see attached (or, in larger, clearer, form, http://www.billanddot.com/Lloydz-Mot...2014-09-02.pdf on my web site).

Sorry that's all I can offer. Maybe someone else can discuss these results more meaningfully.

2007 Hammer, lowered, Bassani 2:1(updated), torque tubes, Dobeck AFR+.
2000 Firebird Formula, 6.0L, LS3 heads, etc, etc, etc, - SOLD
HM3(FMF) - 3/7 Lima Co. 2010 Helmand, Afghanistan

Last edited by rumblebox; 09-10-2014 at 07:41 AM.
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 10:44 AM
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He was tuning the whole throttle spectrum for each RPM range to maximize power and efficiency at all throttle positions and RPM's. I'm just curious about what the AFR usually looks like at WOT through the powerband.
That graph was done at WOT. All max power graphs like that are. I think his point was that the AFR was pretty constant across the rpm range.

The way the factory sets them is to run near stoich at cruising speeds to maximize fuel efficiency and minimize emissions. From the accounts I've read, they are all mapped to run much richer during acceleration and high rpm operation. Those are not operating conditions that manufacturers need to satisfy federal requirements.




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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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That graph was done at WOT. All max power graphs like that are.
A given

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I think his point was that the AFR was pretty constant across the rpm range.
That's what i was wondering

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The way the factory sets them is to run near stoich at cruising speeds to maximize fuel efficiency and minimize emissions. From the accounts I've read, they are all mapped to run much richer during acceleration and high rpm operation. Those are not operating conditions that manufacturers need to satisfy federal requirements.
Gotta love the EPA

2007 Hammer, lowered, Bassani 2:1(updated), torque tubes, Dobeck AFR+.
2000 Firebird Formula, 6.0L, LS3 heads, etc, etc, etc, - SOLD
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 01:09 PM
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Gotta love the EPA
This is an often heard line. Actually, I do like the requirements in concept, just not always in practice. As someone who enjoys a spritz of oxygen with my air, I very much appreciate them requiring vehicle manufacturers to abide by standards that help keep it that way.

For cars, trucks, and other gas powered gizmos, I think such EPA setups are great. And that's to say nothing of the gas money they save me.

Where it all falls apart for me is requiring it on bikes. Someone in the gov't needs to strap an engine between their legs before they make requirements that will increase the nut roasting heat of liter plus engined bikes. And the jerky throttle response that is manageable in a car, is much less manageable when on a bike trying to get around a corner.

So for me, the relationship is sort of a love/hate proposition.




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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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Don't get me wrong. I love cars that don't stink, and i love having clean air in the city, but yea. They get out of hand, especially with bikes and diesels.

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This is an often heard line. Actually, I do like the requirements in concept, just not always in practice. As someone who enjoys a spritz of oxygen with my air, I very much appreciate them requiring vehicle manufacturers to abide by standards that help keep it that way.

For cars, trucks, and other gas powered gizmos, I think such EPA setups are great. And that's to say nothing of the gas money they save me.

Where it all falls apart for me is requiring it on bikes. Someone in the gov't needs to strap an engine between their legs before they make requirements that will increase the nut roasting heat of liter plus engined bikes. And the jerky throttle response that is manageable in a car, is much less manageable when on a bike trying to get around a corner.

So for me, the relationship is sort of a love/hate proposition.

2007 Hammer, lowered, Bassani 2:1(updated), torque tubes, Dobeck AFR+.
2000 Firebird Formula, 6.0L, LS3 heads, etc, etc, etc, - SOLD
HM3(FMF) - 3/7 Lima Co. 2010 Helmand, Afghanistan
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 01:32 PM
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I agree with about everything here. I can't help but think about a few things before we had EPA and pollution controls. Ever ride behind a big 8 cylinder with a screwed up carbuerator? There use to be lots of cars that would just flat gag you to ride behind. I don't miss them. That said, I'd prefer my bike without them.
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 02:11 PM
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Throughout the WOT power band, does the optimal AFR get progressively leaner as RPM's climb? Like 12.5:[email protected] and like 13.5:[email protected]?
In almost EVERY case, a tuner will target a specific AFR (like 13.7) but power will vary (very slightly) a bit above or below depending on numerous factors. I was surprised to learn that those minor AFR difference really don't make much (if ANY) difference on power (e.g. a 13.7 seting vs. a 14.1 might not make even 0.05% of a HP difference) so the bottom line is... "Don't think that AFR is the be-all, end-all for tuning" as it AIN'T

Here is a good video of a mustang on a dyno that helps better understand what part AFR plays in the HP efforts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzn3-ygH-v8




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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
In almost EVERY case, a tuner will target a specific AFR (like 13.7) but power will vary (very slightly) a bit above or below depending on numerous factors. I was surprised to learn that those minor AFR difference really don't make much (if ANY) difference on power (e.g. a 13.7 seting vs. a 14.1 might not make even 0.05% of a HP difference) so the bottom line is... "Don't think that AFR is the be-all, end-all for tuning" as it AIN'T

Here is a good video of a mustang on a dyno that helps better understand what part AFR plays in the HP efforts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzn3-ygH-v8
I've had a few tunes done and the difference is small as in effecting power.

Ridability on the other hand is effected a great deal.

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