Problem with auto tune - Victory Forums - Victory Motorcycle Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-15-2012, 04:22 PM Thread Starter
Lifetime Premium
 
toejam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 984
Default Problem with auto tune

So, I have the PC5 w/ AT-300 installed, had a dyno tune done to get me close and when I have AT enabled, something very strange is happening around thew 2000-2500 rpm range - its as if its stumbling to run in that range. Before 2000 and after about 2400 or so is fine, any suggestions? What I've done as I thought to be the correct steps to be was to enable AT, ride about 20 miles, accept trims, save them, and repeat only to have that 2000-2500 rpm still mess up. I've ended up reloading the original map from the dyno tune and turning off AT and no problems. Thanks for any help!

2013 Anti-Freeze Green XC
Vance & Hines Slip On's
Lloyd's VM1-DR Cams & Timing Wheel
Lloydz Air Filter, Lloydz Rev-Extend
BadBoy Horn, PCV
Gustafsson +4 Windscreen
Picasso Nano PN2.350D Amp
Audison Voce' AV X6.5 Speakers
HMD520 Gorilla Bagger Bars

2010 XC 116 Big Bore - Gone
2006 Hammer - Gone
toejam is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2012, 12:59 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
BBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NW AZ
Posts: 12,907
Garage
Default

I wish I could help but it sounds a lot like the trouble I've had with the AT. Seems like it works fine for some and not others. So far I haven't been able to find out why.

One thing you can try though is to reduce the amount of change it can make from 20% down to 10% and see if that makes any difference.
BBob is offline  
post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2012, 02:40 AM
Senior Member
 
DunedinDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Dunedin, FL
Posts: 263
Default

I think the problem is many dyno guys don't understand the auto tune. My dyno guy told me that once he set my map I could just throw away my auto tune. I ended up throwing away his map and going back to the base map with the auto tune. These guys don't understand that the auto tune is doing what they do (build a fuel table) thousands of times faster and more efficiently under real world conditions. Given enough time and miles on the auto tune it probably would have corrected the dyno guy's mapping problems, but I was not that patient.

Riding 20 miles then accepting trims isn't really doing much quite honestly. I normally ride at least two fillups before I accept my trims. This gives the autotune a chance to fill in all the trims across the range of driving I'm doing, and it gives me a chance to check mileage to see if I need to fine tune my AFR's before accepting them.

One thing to be careful about with the base maps is the fuel table settings may be based on an un-flashed ECM. If you are like me and had your ECM flashed due to some add-ons, the base fuel map is probably off. I ended up zeroing out the base fuel map and letting the autotune build up my fuel map from the AFR's over time as I accept the trims. This seems to be working pretty well as the autotune automatically adjusts the feed from the injectors based on the fuel ratio settings real-time even if there are no entries in the base map.

Bottom line, I'd trust the auto tune long before I'd trust a dyno guy again.

2012 Victory High Ball
Victory Stage 1 swept pipes and performance air filter
PCV and Autotune

Last edited by DunedinDragon; 04-16-2012 at 02:59 AM.
DunedinDragon is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2012, 02:49 AM
Senior Member
 
DunedinDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Dunedin, FL
Posts: 263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBob View Post
I wish I could help but it sounds a lot like the trouble I've had with the AT. Seems like it works fine for some and not others. So far I haven't been able to find out why.

One thing you can try though is to reduce the amount of change it can make from 20% down to 10% and see if that makes any difference.
I'm not sure that would do much. All that would happen is you'd max out a problematic cell's trim at 10%, then once you accepted it and zeroed the trims, you just max that same cell out the next time and be at 20% anyway. The better option would be to examine the trim table and if you have any cells whose trims seem too high it would indicate your AFR for that cell is set too rich. Just lean out the AFR's in the cells whose trims seem to be too high, but don't accept the trims and let the autotune adjust the trims based on the new AFR.

2012 Victory High Ball
Victory Stage 1 swept pipes and performance air filter
PCV and Autotune

Last edited by DunedinDragon; 04-16-2012 at 03:06 AM.
DunedinDragon is offline  
post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2012, 09:56 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
BBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NW AZ
Posts: 12,907
Garage
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DunedinDragon View Post
I think the problem is many dyno guys don't understand the auto tune. My dyno guy told me that once he set my map I could just throw away my auto tune. I ended up throwing away his map and going back to the base map with the auto tune. These guys don't understand that the auto tune is doing what they do (build a fuel table) thousands of times faster and more efficiently under real world conditions. Given enough time and miles on the auto tune it probably would have corrected the dyno guy's mapping problems, but I was not that patient.

Riding 20 miles then accepting trims isn't really doing much quite honestly. I normally ride at least two fillups before I accept my trims. This gives the autotune a chance to fill in all the trims across the range of driving I'm doing, and it gives me a chance to check mileage to see if I need to fine tune my AFR's before accepting them.

One thing to be careful about with the base maps is the fuel table settings may be based on an un-flashed ECM. If you are like me and had your ECM flashed due to some add-ons, the base fuel map is probably off. I ended up zeroing out the base fuel map and letting the autotune build up my fuel map from the AFR's over time as I accept the trims. This seems to be working pretty well as the autotune automatically adjusts the feed from the injectors based on the fuel ratio settings real-time even if there are no entries in the base map.

Bottom line, I'd trust the auto tune long before I'd trust a dyno guy again.
I think I'm following you here but don't you need a known good AFR map to begin with? Do you have any entries in the 0 (idle) column?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DunedinDragon View Post
I'm not sure that would do much. All that would happen is you'd max out a problematic cell's trim at 10%, then once you accepted it and zeroed the trims, you just max that same cell out the next time and be at 20% anyway. The better option would be to examine the trim table and if you have any cells whose trims seem too high it would indicate your AFR for that cell is set too rich. Just lean out the AFR's in the cells whose trims seem to be too high, but don't accept the trims and let the autotune adjust the trims based on the new AFR.
How much do you lean it out at a time? Do you go .5 or a full point?

Do you have an AFR you like that you can do a Print Screen on so we can compare with what your using?

Thanks much! Dang AT has me kinda bummed right now.
BBob is offline  
post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2012, 10:04 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 554
Garage
Default

Maybe I missed someone mentioning this. The AT does not adjust the map on the fly, you have to accept the trim values that adjusts the map in the PCV, then the Auto Tune learns some more to the map, then you manually update the PCV for any new changes. If you start from a crap map you get a crap map. Just less crappy. There are a lot of rules when tuning with the At to get a really good map. It does not like engine breaking for example, it messes with the cells due to reversion.
WilCon76 is offline  
post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2012, 10:31 AM
Senior Member
 
DunedinDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Dunedin, FL
Posts: 263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBob View Post
I think I'm following you here but don't you need a known good AFR map to begin with? Do you have any entries in the 0 (idle) column?

How much do you lean it out at a time? Do you go .5 or a full point?

Do you have an AFR you like that you can do a Print Screen on so we can compare with what your using?

Thanks much! Dang AT has me kinda bummed right now.
Actually, I started with the M19-002-003 map from dynojet which is for a 2011 106 c.i. with performance exhaust and air filter. It doesn't look much like it now though.

Generally I lean around .5 or so. Sometimes more than that if I think it's a real problem. I wouldn't get bummed at the AT. It's frustrating at first until you get a feel for what it's doing. Once you realize how the system works and what each table is telling you about your performance, it's pretty straightforward figuring out what and how much you want to change something.

Here's a jpeg of an older map I was using. I've modified it somewhat but you can compare it to yours. My current AFR map is a bit leaner at the lower RPM and throttle positions as most of my driving in the local area is 45 - 60 stop and go. That makes the bike more responsive. Hope that helps.

Generally I don't mess with the idle positions on the AFR map. I have slightly richened some entries on the fuel map to stop the decel popping.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg forum map.jpg (65.6 KB, 30 views)

2012 Victory High Ball
Victory Stage 1 swept pipes and performance air filter
PCV and Autotune

Last edited by DunedinDragon; 04-16-2012 at 10:34 AM.
DunedinDragon is offline  
post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2012, 10:32 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: JOCO KS
Posts: 632
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilCon76 View Post
Maybe I missed someone mentioning this. The AT does not adjust the map on the fly, you have to accept the trim values that adjusts the map in the PCV, then the Auto Tune learns some more to the map, then you manually update the PCV for any new changes.....
Yes and no. You are technically correct that the AT does not adjust the base PC-V fuel map on the fly, HOWEVER, it DOES make real time aggregate adjustements! The fueling that you end up with is a combination of the base PC fuel map AND the AT trim map! So, the effect is indeed on the fly tuning!

2011 Silver/black Vision, Ness Big Honkers, Ness Twin Sucker, PC-V w/AT, Lloydz VM1-DR cams, Lloydz Adj Intake, Lloydz Variable Timing Wheel.

2006 110" (133hp/142tq) +nitrous Kingpin (sold)
Gunslinger is offline  
post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2012, 11:52 AM
Senior Member
 
sixshooter_45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 530
Garage
Question A Few questions

I'm starting to do research on the AT, and will do some searching on this forum as well.

I found this info here:

"Procedure:

Start with a map file that is cylinder basic. This means you have a single fuel table for both cylinders. Put the Auto-tune o2 sensor in the rear pipe.

Turn Auto-tune on and ride. After a riding session, reconnect the software to it. Get the map out of it. View the trims to see what Auto-tune has adjusted. Accept the trims into the base map. Send the new modified map into the Power Commander. Then keep repeating this process until you start to notice very little trims being applied in the trim table. This means that cylinder is tuned.

Click “Save Map File” to save that map into your computer. Then swap the o2 sensor over to the front cylinder. Then let Auto-tune do the same thing with the sensor in the front pipe. Once you have a good map that is being trimmed very little by Auto-tune, save that map file.

Then go into the Map Tools menu and select Advance/Demote Map. Select Cylinder Advanced for the fuel tables and click ok. Go into Auto-tune configuration window and disable Auto-tune. Send the Cylinder Advanced zero map into the Power Commander. Open the first map that was made on rear cylinder.

View the fuel table in it. Highlight the entire chart. Right click in the chart and select Copy. Then click Get Map to retrieve the cylinder advanced map in the unit. View the Cylinder 2 fuel table. Right click inside the table and select Paste.

Then Send Map. Then open a copy of the front cylinder map you made. Copy the fuel table in it. Get the Cylinder Advanced map from the unit. Go into the Cylinder 1 fuel table. Right click inside it. Select Paste. Then Send the map into the unit. You now have a cylinder advanced map with two separate fuel tables in your Power Commander"

I'm confused a little about this product now because, 1.) I need to do more reading. 2) I thought I read were folks un-plug their 02 sensors when using this product.

************************************************** ********************

Does any one have any good links for someone just learning about the AT, for instance:

1.) The proper recommended way how is it used?
2.) Which is more applicable to Victory's: The Dyno jet or AT?
3.) Are the other products that are required to use this AT product.
4.) Links to posts where folks really have a great understanding on how to properly use this product and take full advantage of it.

I don't have a motorcycle yet but am planning on a Victory in the next few months, have to wait due to several personal circumstances. I'm hoping by the end of June at the latest unless I decide to wait for a 2013 model.

Thanks for you time and input, I'll be doing a lot of reading starting now.

Last edited by sixshooter_45; 04-16-2012 at 11:57 AM.
sixshooter_45 is offline  
post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-16-2012, 12:32 PM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: JOCO KS
Posts: 632
Default

This is only necessary with the single sensor AT unit. Most of us are buying the dual sensor model, so moving sensor around and working with each map separately is not an issue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter_45 View Post
I'm starting to do research on the AT, and will do some searching on this forum as well.

I found this info here:

"Procedure:

Start with a map file that is cylinder basic. This means you have a single fuel table for both cylinders. Put the Auto-tune o2 sensor in the rear pipe.

Turn Auto-tune on and ride. After a riding session, reconnect the software to it. Get the map out of it. View the trims to see what Auto-tune has adjusted. Accept the trims into the base map. Send the new modified map into the Power Commander. Then keep repeating this process until you start to notice very little trims being applied in the trim table. This means that cylinder is tuned.

Click “Save Map File” to save that map into your computer. Then swap the o2 sensor over to the front cylinder. Then let Auto-tune do the same thing with the sensor in the front pipe. Once you have a good map that is being trimmed very little by Auto-tune, save that map file.

Then go into the Map Tools menu and select Advance/Demote Map. Select Cylinder Advanced for the fuel tables and click ok. Go into Auto-tune configuration window and disable Auto-tune. Send the Cylinder Advanced zero map into the Power Commander. Open the first map that was made on rear cylinder.

View the fuel table in it. Highlight the entire chart. Right click in the chart and select Copy. Then click Get Map to retrieve the cylinder advanced map in the unit. View the Cylinder 2 fuel table. Right click inside the table and select Paste.

Then Send Map. Then open a copy of the front cylinder map you made. Copy the fuel table in it. Get the Cylinder Advanced map from the unit. Go into the Cylinder 1 fuel table. Right click inside it. Select Paste. Then Send the map into the unit. You now have a cylinder advanced map with two separate fuel tables in your Power Commander"

I'm confused a little about this product now because, 1.) I need to do more reading. 2) I thought I read were folks un-plug their 02 sensors when using this product.

************************************************** ********************

Does any one have any good links for someone just learning about the AT, for instance:

1.) The proper recommended way how is it used?
2.) Which is more applicable to Victory's: The Dyno jet or AT?
3.) Are the other products that are required to use this AT product.
4.) Links to posts where folks really have a great understanding on how to properly use this product and take full advantage of it.

I don't have a motorcycle yet but am planning on a Victory in the next few months, have to wait due to several personal circumstances. I'm hoping by the end of June at the latest unless I decide to wait for a 2013 model.

Thanks for you time and input, I'll be doing a lot of reading starting now.

2011 Silver/black Vision, Ness Big Honkers, Ness Twin Sucker, PC-V w/AT, Lloydz VM1-DR cams, Lloydz Adj Intake, Lloydz Variable Timing Wheel.

2006 110" (133hp/142tq) +nitrous Kingpin (sold)
Gunslinger is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Victory Forums - Victory Motorcycle Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome