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Electricity flows to the bike intermittently.

5K views 33 replies 8 participants last post by  BBob 
#1 ·
The bike is a 2009 Victory Vision with 80k on it. Only modification is reverse and a power line leading to a plug for a trickle charger or electric clothing.

Ran the bike for a couple of hours that day pulled up in the driveway shut it off and then it would not come back on. It flashed a slight light on the dash showing the neutral light then nothing.

It now comes on intermittently when the ignition is in the on position.

I assumed it was the ignition switch. Removed disassembled and lubed it up (ordered a new one out of fear they would stop making them) and pulled it back in. Bike lit up like it supposed to, fuel pump came on, thought I fix it. Wrong.

After some additional reassembly I tried turning the bike on again and nothing but the sight lighting of some of the insterments. Checked voltage at the battery it was fine (12.9 volts). Voltage at the switch was fine and across the switch it was fine. Interestingly when switched off the pink and brown lines which should read 0 (I assume) are showing 4.2 volts.

I unplugged the ignition switch and jumper across the contacts. Bike did nothing again. I started checking voltage. Across the switch was fine so I began checking fuses. Really did nothing to move any wires and low and behold the bike came on (ie the lights came on and the fuel pump fired up). I moved a few wires and the some parts of the exposed harness but could not get the bike to loose power.

Something very strange is happening and I am lost as to what to check next.
 
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#2 ·
I can offer no help but encouragement to keep looking. Intermittent problems are the hardest to solve.
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the encouragement vinish. By the way we were just down in your town last month. Took a trip to Lake Lure and did some riding and investigating the possibility of moving to the area. Kind of concluded it was a bit busy around Ashville and expensive. We are now looking at Bristol and Johnson City since I have a job opportunity in that area. We also concluded that a vision and yamaha venture are not the ideal bikes for a lot of those roads. 15-20 mph blind, decreasing radius turns are great on a small sport bike but not these two beasts.

As far as the wire diagram, the shop manual has them. I am tracing wires from the switch to the next block connector but getting at some of them requires some work. The fact that it came on and them went off tells me something along with the voltage on the other side of the switch when it is in the off position. I am thinking some other hot line off the battery must be shorting out but so far the battery is holding a charge. I also do not see any other wires off the battery other than the heavy line to the starter solenoid. I am going to swap out the battery today and that will give me a look around in that area for something. I am fairly sure I should not be seeing any voltage on the pink and brown lines leading away from the starter switch when the switch is off and even disconnected.
 

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#6 ·
Sounds like a loose connection to me.

A loose connection can create a high resistance point in the circuit that would mimic the symptoms you're seeing. Intermittent low voltage conditions. Not a short. From what I read in your post, your battery is holding its charge.

The loose connection can be from a worn relay. Breaking contact causes an arc which eventually reduces the contact area between contacts. From what I've seen on my newly acquired Hammer, turning the ignition key closes the relay. Haven't looked at the wiring diagram, but maybe try removing the main lighting relay and see what happens? This can also occur at the ignition switch.
 
#7 ·
Give me a shout if you have any questions about the area. Yes, Asheville is expensive and crowded but surrounding areas are neither crowded or expensive. I live about 8 miles west of Hendersonville and it is neither crowded or expensive. I ride a Victory Cross country Tour and I love the tight twisty roads in this area. The riding within 20 miles of me is better than the Tail of the Dragon.
 
#8 ·
I remember a few years ago I was riding in Northern Arizona. It was early summer, but cold. Rain and snow. I stopped to do some filming (snow is always wonderful for us desert dwellers). Got back on the bike (M109R), and it wouldn't start. Not a click. Nothing.

I pulled out my tool roll and stopped and thought a minute. Then I removed the cover to the switches on the left hand. It had water, so I blew it out, put it back together, and the bike started right up.

Your main lighting runs through this switch cluster. Maybe want to check this? Could be you have a foreign, conductive object that is shunting the current from the lighting circuit to ground. Intermittent due to the handlebar movement and vibration. It would explain your symptoms.

Hopefully this anecdote is useful.
 
#9 ·
@BlackhawkFan has a good suggestion. I periodically blow-out my switches with contact cleaner...(like once a month). If I don't, I notice funky things starting to happen, like one side turn signals not coming on, dash lights blinking or even the headlight going out. If I keep the switches clean and dry I have no issues.
 
#10 ·
I remember eading about the OEM relays or C/B I guess it is being not so good. I replaced mine with a good quality BUSS, and cleaned the battery terminals while I was in there. Agree the battery may be source. I came home from a 3000+ mile trip and next day went to start bike and lights, but no action. Then no lights. Ended up being the battery. Load test it, if you dont have the equipment swing by one of the auto stores. Hope you get it solved.
 
#11 ·
Battery good

I did some checking last night and found the battery is find and the breaker is fine. I took my line to the trickle charger was not the problem, I checked voltage across the block connectors for both handle bar controls. All that showed me is that there was 12 volts to many of them when the ignition was on and 4.8 volts to all but one with the ignition is off. I pulled all the relays on both fuse block and check voltage and found something interesting. One of the relays showed 12 volts at all contacts. That made not sense and need further investigation. With the ignition off I got 12 volts at one the expected points and 4.8 volts again at the other contacts. I have been thinking about that relay with 12 volts at all points all night. It really make no sense and cold be pointing to the problem. If I am not mistaken the purpose of the relay is to close the circuit with the relay in place. I had the relay in my hand and all of the contact points on the fuse block read 12.9 volts.
 
#13 ·
I checked voltage across the block connectors for both handle bar controls. All that showed me is that there was 12 volts to many of them when the ignition was on and 4.8 volts to all but one with the ignition is off. I pulled all the relays on both fuse block and check voltage and found something interesting. One of the relays showed 12 volts at all contacts. That made not sense and need further investigation. With the ignition off I got 12 volts at one the expected points and 4.8 volts again at the other contacts. I have been thinking about that relay with 12 volts at all points all night. It really make no sense and cold be pointing to the problem. If I am not mistaken the purpose of the relay is to close the circuit with the relay in place. I had the relay in my hand and all of the contact points on the fuse block read 12.9 volts.
You should see 12V or 0V. The 4.8V COULD indicate a partial short, meaning your battery would be discharging when the ignition is off. Caveat is there IS some vampiric current draw on your bike, as is with all modern electronics. 4.8V means that voltage is being regulated (converted from 12V to 5V, filtered and regulated) and probably powers maintenance functions, so take my statement with a grain of salt.

You can check if your circuit has a partial short by disconnecting the negative at the battery. Take the disconnected negative cable and touch it to a bare part of the bike's frame. Look for sparking, which indicates current flow. You may see a small spark, depending on how much current is flowing, and probably best done in low light. If you have a multimeter with amps function, place one probe on the negative terminal and the other on the disconnected battery cable. Amps are measured in series, so the meter has to be in line as part of the circuit. (Note: Clamp-on ammeters work by induction and only measure AC current, just in case you were wondering.)
 
#12 ·
Relays how do they work

Ok so I check the voltage on each of the contacts at several of the relays on the fuse block on the right side of the windshield. This is with the relay pulled out.

the attached photo show the meter probe on the upper left hand contact of the Engine relay

Fuel pump/ignition coil relay

Ignition switch off
three pins show 3.5 volts and one showed 12.8

Ignition switch on
two left hand pins showed 12.8 and the two right hand pins showed 11 and 11.5

I am at a loss to understand what happens with this relay when it is in place.

Engine Relay

Ignition switch off
two left hand pins 12.4 and 12.8 volts
two right hand pins 3.4 and 0.03 volts

Ignitions switch on
two right left hand pins 12.4 and 12.8
the two right hand pins 11.1 and .13

Again I have no idea what the relay actually closes at this location.

Head light control relay

Ignition switch off
3.4 on all four contacts
Ignition on
12.7 volts on all contacts

Chassis Electrical Relay
(this relay has five contact pins but only the four corner pins appear to have a contact)
Ignition off
3.6 volts on the two left hand contacts
3.6 volts on the right hand upper contact and 12.8 on the lower
Ignition On
12.7 volts and 11.2 volts on the left hand contact
12.7 and 11.2 on the right hand contacts

Headlight Switching Relay
5 pin relay
Ignition off
3.8 volts on all contacts
Ignition switch on
11.5 volts on all contact.

The run stop switch was closed.

Let me know if you can make sense out of this information.
 

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#14 · (Edited)
I'll get to your longer post after I've had some coffee.

But until then, I'll address the subject of how relays work.

As I stated earlier, opening contacts under load (while current flows) causes an arcing (sparking) across the contacts. Arcing transfers metal between the contacts. This is the same principle with arc welding.

A relay uses a coil to open and close those contacts. This prevents (in a perfect world) the contacts from welding close. The contacts are under spring tension, so when the actuating coil (RED in the diagram below) loses power, spring tension opens the contacts very quickly, reducing dwell (welding) time.

With the ignition switch OFF, you should see 12V on the battery side of the relay. The load side should be 0V.

Generally speaking, if you see anything but 0V on the load side, it indicates a current path to ground (battery negative), meaning you COULD have a partial short on that section of the circuit. Note also that this depends on your reference, meaning how good your ground point is. When troubleshooting electrical issues with my bikes, use bolts on the main frame. I've found that bolts on the triple trees may not be at true ground.

If you see anything except 0V on the load side, it could also mean the contacts aren't opening fully. Arcing between contacts will produce a thin bridge of metal between contacts. This bridge will have more resistance than contacts in the fully closed position, therefore the voltage drop across the contacts will measure less than the source (battery). Hopefully I didn't confuse you with this statement.

Hope this helps.
 

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#15 · (Edited)
Fuel pump/ignition coil relay

Ignition switch off
three pins show 3.5 volts and one showed 12.8

Ignition switch on
two left hand pins showed 12.8 and the two right hand pins showed 11 and 11.5

I am at a loss to understand what happens with this relay when it is in place.
OFF - 12.8V is battery side. 3.5V indicate a partial short or your relay isn't opening properly due to wear.

ON - 12.8V --> 11.5V is the voltage drop across the contacts. Somewhat normal, but I think your contacts are worn.

I recommend you buy a new relay (one for your main lighting circuit) and use it to replace your relays, one at a time to see if the issue persists.

I also recommend that you open up both switch housings next to your hand grips, look closely for foreign objects and corrosion, check for loose connections, and spray it down with something like WD40 to displace any moisture.
 
#16 ·
Engine Relay

Ignition switch off
two left hand pins 12.4 and 12.8 volts
two right hand pins 3.4 and 0.03 volts

Ignitions switch on
two right left hand pins 12.4 and 12.8
the two right hand pins 11.1 and .13
OFF - 3.4V doesn't seem right. I think it should be 0V. I don't have access to the schematics or wiring diagram, but to me, an engine relay should be for the ignition coils (two current feeds, one per coil). Does the engine run rough? I think this relay is bad. Contacts are shot (partially closed due to arcing).

ON - 0.13V doesn't seem right. If you remove the relay, what is the resistance of that pin to ground? 0.13V indicates either the relay contacts aren't closing or you have a direct short to ground. Your original post, if I read it correctly, says your battery isn't going dead. THIS COULD BE YOUR PROBLEM. Try replacing this relay and see what happens.
 
#18 ·
Keep in mind they reading were taken with the relay removed from the socket. Those are the reading for the contact. What is happening in the relay itself is something I have not checked yet since what is happening beyond the relay seems crazy.
 
#17 ·
Head light control relay

Ignition switch off
3.4 on all four contacts
Ignition on
12.7 volts on all contacts
OFF - 3.4V isn't right. I'd expect to see 12V on the battery side and 0V on the load side. Did you take the relay mounting block apart? Seems to me there's something inside it that shouldn't be. Something is shunting (shorting, bypassing) this part of the circuit. If you saw 3.4V on only one side, I'd trace the circuit on both sides (battery, load) to see if there's an issue.

ON - Normal
 
#19 ·
Chassis Electrical Relay
(this relay has five contact pins but only the four corner pins appear to have a contact)
Ignition off
3.6 volts on the two left hand contacts
3.6 volts on the right hand upper contact and 12.8 on the lower
Ignition On
12.7 volts and 11.2 volts on the left hand contact
12.7 and 11.2 on the right hand contacts
Same as previous post.

OFF - 12.8V should be your battery, so that's normal.

ON - Normal, but load side voltages are a bit low, indicating, IMO, that your relay could be worn.
 
#20 ·
Headlight Switching Relay
5 pin relay
Ignition off
3.8 volts on all contacts
Ignition switch on
11.5 volts on all contact.

The run stop switch was closed.
OFF - Not normal IMO, but this could be controlled by something else (ie: My Hammer has a feature where the engine can be off but the tail light is on. An emergency function, I imagine.).

ON - Normal.

Run/Stop should only affect your ignition coils. This could be an issue (see my reply regarding your engine relay findings). I HIGHLY suggest you take the handlebar switch groups apart and check them as I recommended previously.
 
#21 ·
Possible diode issue

The local victory mechanic suggested that it very well could be one of the diodes. This seems to make sense we seem to have current flow in a direction that it should not be flowing and the diodes I assume prevent that. He suggested the tall metal fuses in the blocks were the diode but the did not test out to be diodes I think they are just a different kind of fuse. You can see one in the photo it has 15 printed on the top.

From the wiring diagram it appears their are two diode and they are both located in the "auto cancel turn signal module". That is the part I asked about earlier. It sits next to the ignition switch. Wonder how you test that. Something tells me you just replace and hope.
 

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#23 · (Edited)
The local victory mechanic suggested that it very well could be one of the diodes. This seems to make sense we seem to have current flow in a direction that it should not be flowing and the diodes I assume prevent that. He suggested the tall metal fuses in the blocks were the diode but the did not test out to be diodes I think they are just a different kind of fuse. You can see one in the photo it has 15 printed on the top.

From the wiring diagram it appears their are two diode and they are both located in the "auto cancel turn signal module". That is the part I asked about earlier. It sits next to the ignition switch. Wonder how you test that. Something tells me you just replace and hope.
Diodes block current flow in one direction. The usual failure is they open. I've never seen a diode short (that doesn't mean they can't, I imagine).

You check diodes by removing them from the circuit (disconnect one side) and check it with your multimeter in resistance mode. Measure across the diode itself. If you read high resistance (typically in the K ohm range or higher), swap your probes and you should read very low resistance (typically 100 ohms or less).

Another way to check diodes is with power on and the diode in circuit. You should read full voltage in the reverse direction and approximately 0.7V (or 0.3V, depending on the diode PN junction material (silicon vs germanium)) in the forward direction across the diode. Note that if you use the frame (ground) for reference, you should see a 0.7V (or 0.3V) difference in your readings. I don't recommend this method in your case because you need to isolate the component.

Do the diodes have metallic bodies and large heat sinks (are they bolted to the frame)? If yes and they're bad, your electrical symptoms would be very different. This configuration functions as regulators, not rectifiers, and your electrical system (or major parts of it) would be dead if the component failed.

As the coffee kicks in and I think about this, I highly doubt your bike's issues are caused by failed diodes. Diode failures aren't intermittent. You COULD have loose connections, however.

As the coffee kicks in even more, I'm reminded that this is a DC system. Diodes are used to block one polarity of AC circuits (ie: turn AC into DC), so these diodes have to be in line with the ignition coils and are used to block inductive kickback. If one of these diodes fail, the affected engine cylinder would not fire. This doesn't line up with what I understand of your bike's issues.
 
#24 ·
found some good info on wiring diagram

I will skip the discussion around investigation of the "flasher module" that used the 2008 wiring diagram and jump right to the correct wiring diagram. The first photo is of the wiring diagram showing the pins and numbers and colors of wire and diodes as well as purpose.

After testing with a power source I confirmed that both diodes are working properly but I had seen a reading of 4.58 volts when I was testing while using the wrong wiring diagram so I investigated further.

I ran the power line to pins 2, 3, and 4 which are switched power, right side power input and left side power input. In all three cases I got a reading of 4.58 volts at the ground pin. I got 12.8 volts at other pins but its this 4.58 volts at the ground pin that really probably should not be there. It almost has to be the problem. This test was done with the module on the work bench with an independent battery used as a power source.

So how was I getting 4-5 volts in all those places that should not have had any. Well this really looks like the source. Unfortunately I probably will not know for sure until after I spend $93 dollars for a new module.

The first photo shows the correct wiring diagram and the second photo shows a power line leading to pin 4 through the alligator clip attached to the negative side of the battery on the bench. The positive probe is on pin 5 which is ground.
 

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#26 ·
I will skip the discussion around investigation of the "flasher module" that used the 2008 wiring diagram and jump right to the correct wiring diagram. The first photo is of the wiring diagram showing the pins and numbers and colors of wire and diodes as well as purpose.

After testing with a power source I confirmed that both diodes are working properly but I had seen a reading of 4.58 volts when I was testing while using the wrong wiring diagram so I investigated further.

I ran the power line to pins 2, 3, and 4 which are switched power, right side power input and left side power input. In all three cases I got a reading of 4.58 volts at the ground pin. I got 12.8 volts at other pins but its this 4.58 volts at the ground pin that really probably should not be there. It almost has to be the problem. This test was done with the module on the work bench with an independent battery used as a power source.

So how was I getting 4-5 volts in all those places that should not have had any. Well this really looks like the source. Unfortunately I probably will not know for sure until after I spend $93 dollars for a new module.

The first photo shows the correct wiring diagram and the second photo shows a power line leading to pin 4 through the alligator clip attached to the negative side of the battery on the bench. The positive probe is on pin 5 which is ground.
If yer gettin' approx. 5 VDC to common in any of yer circuits that means there's a poor ground (as others have stated 'bout this problem in other posts). Quit over analyzin' it and look for a poor common!

You've got the print from yer theVOG.net posts. Use it!
 

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#25 · (Edited)
Can you remove the power module? If yes, remove it and go back to your fuse box and retake your measurements. If they're the same, the power module isn't the problem.

Can't read the diagram. Can you send me a copy via email? If yes, pm me and I'll give you my addy.

I was thinking about what you wrote while taking a shower. Showers are wonderful for that. It seems the relays aren't the issue. The issue is a partial short, not necessarily to ground, somewhere else. A major clue is the non-0V on the load side of the relays with the relays unplugged and the ignition off. This suggests a short to a power line through a resistive component or loose/corroded connection.

I would add that I think you should make a copy of your wiring diagram, get a highlighter, and mark the relay pins on the load side that are showing more than 0V with the ignition off. Then trace these lines. I'll bet they come to a common point (node) or device somewhere. High probability that this is the point of failure.
 
#27 ·
If yer gettin' approx. 5 VDC to common in any of yer circuits that means there's a poor ground
You're correct in this statement.

However, the load side of a relay should not be connected to ground. Switching a power form to ground (through a resistive component) is used to bias transistors and FETs, but I can't think of an application for an automotive harness. When done in an electronics module, such as on a motorcycle, the biasing circuit is implemented internal to the module, after the power form (12V) has been reduced and regulated. So yes, maybe the EU is faulty, which is why I suggested the OP remove the EU and retake his measurements.

I think EU failure is unlikely, however, because when the engine DOES run, the OP made no mention of it running rough. Other indicators appear to function normally as well.

The OP states the failure to be of an intermittent nature, thus the voltage measurements on the load side of the relays are probably attributed to partially shorting a power line through a resistive element such as a loose or corroded connection. This is educated, experienced speculation, of course, as I never made my living as an auto mechanic or designer.



I find it poor business practice that manufactures do not provided schematics and wiring diagrams with their user manuals.
 
#30 ·
It was not the flasher module

I am so pissed off about this. It was not the flasher module based on the new module not fixing the problem and also giving the same readings.

I give up. I loaded the bike on the trailer and its going into the shop. They were generous enough to take the part back if it was not the problem so I will give the mechanic there a shot at it.

Any guesses on how many hours he will put in trying to find the problem. I know I have already put in a good 4 or 5.
 
#31 ·
I am so pissed off about this. It was not the flasher module based on the new module not fixing the problem and also giving the same readings.

I give up. I loaded the bike on the trailer and its going into the shop. They were generous enough to take the part back if it was not the problem so I will give the mechanic there a shot at it.

Any guesses on how many hours he will put in trying to find the problem. I know I have already put in a good 4 or 5.
Did you take the wiring diagram and using a highlighter, trace the load sides of the relays that read positive voltage with ignition off? This will point to a common component and should be the issue. Any point that contains all of the highlighted lines is suspect, although I suspect a component/module vs a bad connection. I think your intermittent issue is internal to a module.

Flasher didn't make sense. That's usually a resistor/capacitor network or a bimetallic strip and is unlikely to display the symptoms you've described. Is that where the faulty lines converged?

The only thing a mechanic will do is start swapping out modules. If he's lucky, he'll stumble across the failure, like worn insulation or a loose connection.

Anyway, I hope you get back in the wind soon.
 
#32 ·
Voltage Regulator Problem

So I gave up and took the bike to the shop and they figured out the problem was with the Voltage Regulator. The mechanic explained how he figured it out and it turned out that he was at a loss for why he was seeing the problem he was seeing so he called Polaris and someone suggested pulling the Voltage Regulator. That put 12 volts back into the system and removed the voltage on the ground side. So now we are waiting for a new aftermarket voltage regulator for $150. Apparently this has also damaged the battery so that is getting replaced also.

Hope this tread helps someone out in the future.
 
#34 ·
So I gave up and took the bike to the shop and they figured out the problem was with the Voltage Regulator. The mechanic explained how he figured it out and it turned out that he was at a loss for why he was seeing the problem he was seeing so he called Polaris and someone suggested pulling the Voltage Regulator. That put 12 volts back into the system and removed the voltage on the ground side. So now we are waiting for a new aftermarket voltage regulator for $150. Apparently this has also damaged the battery so that is getting replaced also.

Hope this tread helps someone out in the future.
Back in the day when my Harley's ran a generator instead of an alternator/stator the regulator would go bad. They originally came with a mechanical regulator which looked like the old style points distributor but then electrical regulators hit the market which were better but when they went bad they took out the generator so when both had to be replaced at the same time. If just the generator was replaced; the bad regulator would take out the new generator.

An expensive pain in the butt and not the most reliable system. The new stator systems are so much better. The Victory stator system is better, in my opinion, than the Harley system but both are worlds better than the old generator systems cars and bikes used to have.

This concludes the trivia comment of the day. :) Class dismissed. :nerd :grin
 
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