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Performance and Modification Sequence

4K views 21 replies 10 participants last post by  Chattanooga Mark 
#1 ·
My two and a half week old 2012 CCT only has 2100 miles on it. Upon delivery the dealer installed the Tri Ovals, a Lloyds air cleaner and the Victory fuel map download. I think my bike may be running a bit too lean or too rich though as it pops on decel, down shifting and even sometimes on up shifts. But then I also get some black around the business end of the Tri Ovals after only a few hundred miles. The black stuff I wipe off seems more like water residue being blown out than soot. Yes, the exhaust head pipes get very hot and condensation is likely being blown out the pipes leaving the black residue.

I'm considering the Power Commander V and an Autotune system to get the fuel map correcting itself at all speeds, temperatures and conditions. If you're going to run O2 sensors it just seems right to get the wide band ones and make it an actual smart closed loop system. Between intown and on the highway I typically seem to be riding between 2200 rpm and 2800 rpm a lotof the time. Depending upon gear selection and speed.

At some point I'd also like to get Lloyds cams and his timing wheel for a little more get up and go.

Is getting the fuel map done correctly with the PCV and an Autotune the right fisrt step? My dealer doesn't have a dyno so can they correctly set up the PCV and the Autotune systems? Once these systems are set up and running well, would they have to be re-set with the addition of the cams and a timing wheel or would they self tune to the new additions and changes in riding style?

Do you need a dyno for these items to be set up correctly or does the Autotune negate the need for a dyno?

Thank you for your input.
 
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#4 ·
He's got carbon dripping off the tail pipe and you think he should unplug the O2 sensors?

I agree with TXNR. I'd take it back and make them fix it or get a refund.

There was a guy here who got the Stage 1 and it ran poorly. His mechanic was able to put it into some mode where he could operate it a low rpm for a while and it somehow relearned or reset itself to a proper operating condition.
 
#3 ·
Or you can take your bike back to your dealer and tell them that you are not satisfied with the S1 set up and try and get your money back and go back to stock.
 
#5 ·
What gas do you run? If it has ethanol in it that may be the dripping. The excess drippage is just water. I run 91 octane non-oxy and have fairly clean, dry, slightly sooty tailpipes. I do believe the timing wheel has helped that also though.

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#9 ·
I run 91 with no ethanol and I get the same black spray on warm up that you are experiencing, which leads me to believe, it's not fuel related. I'm running VFCIII, after market pipes, and my O2 are still connected. I also have a lot of popping, which doesn't bother me. I will be on the bike a lot this weekend and am planning on unplugging the O2's. Will update on my experience.


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#10 ·
Thank you, I'll be anxious to read your results. I may try unplugging my O2 sensors as has been suggested many times as well.
 
#11 ·
I believe the O2s are suppose to be disconnected with the vfc. The only time i had any real popping with mine was with stock mufflers and the O2s disconnected. And i didnt mean the water leaving the tailpipe is black, it mixes with the soot and will dribble black. It will stain the concrete black also. Look at the tailpipes of almost every car out there, they almost all will be dribbling water especially at stoplights.

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#12 ·
Say Chicago for now un hook 02's like Half Crazy said that should eliminate popping on decel.
The go to The Vic shop in Iowa and have them do the cams PCV and timing gear. For the most part then can do every thing in a day if you call them and set it up. He is a great victory shop that dozen of guys have used

http://thevicshop.com/
 
#13 ·
Sounds like a good plan! Thank you!
 
#14 ·
I need to chime in here.

Mark;
The PCV has timing adjustment and much more. No need to buy Lloyd's timing wheel. You can change timing and fuel for each cyl and each gear. You can also get rid of most the popping on decal.

You will need the auto-tune so you know the A/F you are running.
I added 6* timing on both cyl everywhere from 1,000rpm.
I also set the A/F to 14.0 on most areas below 20% throttle.
I have the idle and all 0% @ 14.2 A/F.
This really wakes up the bottom end and mid-range.
The extra timing gives great throttle response.
The factory tune has a chart with strictly 13.2 A/F in every cell. That extra fuel just washes the oil off the cyl walls. YES, extra fuel helps run cooler, but that's overly rich.
I use a temp gun and the cyl temps are only 210-215 after a 10 min idle in 80*.
I'd need to check, but I think I have the rear @ 13.9 as it does not get the airflow to help cool it. I do have a point or two richer A/F on the rear cyl @ idle and and low throttle % in 1rst and 2nd gear , after that they are pretty much the same because as speed increases so does the airflow to the rear cyl.

Good luck
Aleck
PS The oil will not turn black as fast or thin out as fast because it is not getting diluted from extra fuel.
 
#15 ·
Question, from what i understand the reason for the timing wheel is because none of the tuners adjust timing under 2500rpms? Is this correct?

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#17 ·
Dyno not really needed.

I've ran a chassis dyno for the last seven years tuning for a living. Before that I rented engine dynos and chassis dynos. I tuned with wide band and with-out. Before I had a dyno to use I did the old school way of reading plugs and observing mph at the track.

That being said I've learned a lot.
Some things are not always exactly what we have been told.
Like perfect A/F is 14.7:1 for idle and cruise.
12.5 A/F for max power.
Then of course the old one of 38* timing all in by 3,000rpm for old school small block chevy.
Lots of variables apply here.
Compression
Bore/Stroke
Cyl head design 4 valve,2 valve etc
Air cooled , water cooled.
A dyno helps find the max power combination. You can still get a good tune with-out a dyno. Sometimes a tune for max power will not rev as fast as a bit of a less aggressive tune. I've tuned circle track stuff that lost a few upper rpm hp but made up for it in mid range torque and with less timing revved faster, causing faster acceleration off the corners and a faster lap time.
My wife's Victory is the first air cooled fuel injected bike I've tuned. So I selected a "soft" tune that is amazing. I took out a bunch of fuel in the bottom and mid range. Added 6* timing in the full chart. The bike now has a very crisp throttle response, next to no backfiring on decell. Because the engine is not being drowned in fuel @ idle it has a total different sound as well.
The complete fuel map was 13.2 A/F. That's really bad. That extra fuel washes the oil off the cyl walls and also dilutes the oil. As you add timing it tends to lean out an engine because it has more time to burn the fuel. Using an O2 sensor you can see where you need to add or tack away fuel.
From my experience I know that an A/F of 14:1 at idle and cruise is still rich, but it's still way better than 13.2. I can still lean the bike out farther, but too lean can cause the engine to run hotter. So I decided to leave the tune for now as KC is loving the extra grunt and the bike only has 1500 miles on it. Heat is the enemy and I'm waiting for the summer heat to see what the engine temps come to be. Who knows maybe the bike wants 8-10* more timing after 3,000rpm. I'm going to add a map sensor so I can take away timing when under load in the upper gears to prevent spark knock.
It just gets better.

Aleck
 
#18 ·
I did about 100 miles yesterday on an ABATE ride with the O2 sensors disconnected. The popping was less loud but much more frequent. It popped on decel as well as up shifts. Plus I lost about 2.5mpg. I changed the oil and filter when I got home and re-connected the O2 sensors after the bike cooled down.

So with the PCV, there's no need for the Lloyds variable timing wheel? If so, great as it saves money for other additions. When I get the PCV I'll also add the wide band O2 sensors with Autotune.

I'm looking for some additional low end grunt as well as the power increase over 3000rpm with the Lloyds cams. Though the vast majority of my riding seems to be between about 2100 rpm and 2900 rpm.

My 2012 CCT currently has the Lloyds air filter, Tri Ovals and the Victory fuel map download. I get a little black around the Tri Ovals opening but not so much as a wipe with a micro cloth doesn't easily remove.
 
#19 ·
#20 ·
The PC-V does NOT adjust timing at 2500rpm and below on our bikes. The Lloydz timing wheel adjusts both ignition AND fuel timing at ALL rpms. When used in conjunction with the PC-V, people are adding 4 degrees with the wheel, then removing timing at upper RPMs with the PC-V. Some of us are finding that anything over 2 degrees of advance is too much, whether with the wheel or the PC-V, in hotter weather.
 
#21 ·
Yuppers. I called dyno-jet and they said that "On Victory only no timing changes are allowed 2,500 and lower". So the timing chart can be changed, but no changes will occur before 2,500.
I need to look into the Lloyd's timing wheel. I know that timing is throttle response. Just gotta find the sweet spot for this bike. Also driving style makes a difference on how much timing you can add. You can't be lugging the engine in the upper gears with 6* extra timing say @ 1,500rpm then cracking the throttle.

Many other variables like fuel octane, gross weight of bike and A/F.
I do know KC's bike works really well with A/F of 14.0 below 20% throttle.
I also took fuel out @ 0% from 6,000rpm to 1,250rpm using auto tune set to 14.5. At 0% above idle you are obviously decell so no load and no loading the pipes with fuel that gets ignited from the heat in the cats causing the backfire.
With auto-tune running I also manually set the A/F using the fuel table so I get a 13.9 rear cyl and 14.0 front cyl reading.

Works great.

Aleck
 
#22 ·
I talked to Rylan Vos earlier this week about my 2012 CCT. I already have the Lloyds air filter, the Victory downloaded fuel map and the Tri Ovals. What I'm needing is the PCV, Lloyds cams and Lloyds Variable Timing Wheel. $350 for installation and $250 for a dyno tune and I'll be done.

On his more conservative dyno that should be between 105 to 110 for each hp and ft.lbs of torque numbers. I know others post up bigger numbers but it seems all dynos don't read the same. Some artificially high, some artificially low and some close to right on.

Now I'm in the saving money to get it all done phase.
 
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