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I really like the fact all these little guys are getting into the performance Victory stuff. It will force the big guys to lower there prices and spend some R&D money. Drew Miller of Miller Mufflers is one of the little guys keeping the big guys honest!
 

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Discussion Starter #102 (Edited)
@dtmmil Those are very interesting charts Drew. Not much difference in peak #'s but that low-end difference is crazy. On the PC-V/ATS chart it looks like there's nothing below 2,200 rpms...odd because my bike with a similar setup does not feel like that.

In fact it pulls better than ever, if I make once of those "slow 2nd gear turns" which is the situation where I might let it drop below 2000 rpms. I only use 1st to start from a stop or very slow speed maneuvers
 

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I'm not understanding the fascination with tuning in the ECM. As long as you have a means to get accurate tuning and control over the fueling, timing, rev limit... What's the difference?

I'd like to see a head to head comparison. Let me get the tune the best I can with a PC-V and ATS... Then take the PC-V off, set the timing wheel to '0' and start over with the ECM tuning. Lay the graphs over each other and see what's what.
Have you seen the graphs provided by dtmmil? Not exactly the "same bike" scenario but as close as we will probably ever see. It does appear that the ECM method gets the torque started sooner. Your thoughts?

With a piggyback like the PC-V, the owner/user can tweak things if he needs to. Take out a decel pop... work out a ping... add some "accelerator pump"... All you need is a laptop. If you had someone tune it in the ECM, that ability would go away.
True, but with the ECM tune there isn't the risk of the PC-V failing, wire breakage, etc. And from a cost perspective, for a guy who is just starting his mods, the ECM tune should be cheaper than the timing gear, gasket, PC-V and tune. Also much more precise than fiddling around with the timing gear. Again, your thoughts?
 

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Have you seen the graphs provided by dtmmil? Not exactly the "same bike" scenario but as close as we will probably ever see. It does appear that the ECM method gets the torque started sooner. Your thoughts?
Can't say how it was accomplished. Looking at the ATS/PC-V graph, I would put more base timing (like +6 on the wheel) and take some timing out of the PC-V timing table. It looks like the torque ramps up hard when the PC-V's timing comes in at 2500 rpm. They don't show A/F ratios... Graph is STD corrected... It's hard to say, since I can't know what was done on each tune.

True, but with the ECM tune there isn't the risk of the PC-V failing, wire breakage, etc. And from a cost perspective, for a guy who is just starting his mods, the ECM tune should be cheaper than the timing gear, gasket, PC-V and tune. Also much more precise than fiddling around with the timing gear. Again, your thoughts?
Again, I don't know what kind of control they actually have over the ECM... As far as I can see, it's just 2 ways to skin the same cat.

Power Commanders are usually good or bad out of the box. It is very rare that one 'goes bad' in use.

There are not places that do ECM tuning near most of us. There are Dynojet tuning centers within driving distance of most of us. Now all this can change... However, I don't have the software to access the ECM programming, but I do have the PC software on a laptop.

What about older bikes like mine? Can they tune with the ECM on this thing?
 

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Can't say how it was accomplished. Looking at the ATS/PC-V graph, I would put more base timing (like +6 on the wheel) and take some timing out of the PC-V timing table. It looks like the torque ramps up hard when the PC-V's timing comes in at 2500 rpm. They don't show A/F ratios... Graph is STD corrected... It's hard to say, since I can't know what was done on each tune.

There are not places that do ECM tuning near most of us. There are Dynojet tuning centers within driving distance of most of us. Now all this can change... However, I don't have the software to access the ECM programming, but I do have the PC software on a laptop.

What about older bikes like mine? Can they tune with the ECM on this thing?
Just talking to you now...the ECM tune is not really an economical option for me since I've already invested in an ATS, PC-V and tune. The only way I'd consider an ECM tune at this point is if something new came out that I wanted to install that necessitated a new tune. This is really a discussion that might help someone just getting started with their performance mods.

When I got my tune there was no mention of adjusting the ATS. Wherever it was set at was where the tune started. I assume this is true for all standard tunes. It's hard for the average Joe such as myself to adjust the ATS to it's optimum setting since I don't have the necessary equipment (dyno) and just enough knowledge to cause a lot of damage. So, like most here, I just took the +4 recommendation. I think this is where the ECM tune is more beneficial (the tuner can tune the timing below 2500 RPM based on the information from the dyno.)

While there are plenty of dyno places around me (Chicago) I elected to go with someone who specializes in Victorys. That decision necessitated a trip and a hotel stay. I think most here are doing the same, skipping the local shops and electing to go to one of the big 3 talked about on this forum quite a bit. In that sense, the location question is moot (unless like yourself someone has experience with a local shop that they trust.)

I don't know which bikes/ECMs they can tune. I did look a little at the Facebook page of one of the shops mentioned in this thread and saw some discussion about some changes Vic made to the ECM of the newer CC or Magnum, so I'm guessing they can't do all Victorys.

The most compelling reason to go the PC-V route is the control for the end user. For some that may be important and for others it may not. Again, I'm not being argumentative but rather trying to list the pros/cons for those researching the performance mods that are trying to make decisions on which route to take.

Side question: If I were to experiment with increasing my ATS timing, making sure to decrease the timing by the same amount in my PC-V map, would this necessitate changes to fuel numbers that have already been set?
 

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Side question: If I were to experiment with increasing my ATS timing, making sure to decrease the timing by the same amount in my PC-V map, would this necessitate changes to fuel numbers that have already been set?
A couple of degrees in and back out (add 2 on the wheel/take 2 out of the PC-V shouldn't change anything... However... it will change things below 2500 rpm where you can't take out what you add on the wheel... but 2 degrees isn't a lot. Try +6 and see what happens. It's free to try it.

Some bikes love timing advance and can't get enough... some ping like hell. I know guys who have +8 and I know guys who can't go past +4. It's a mystery.

Oh....
Since I have access to a dyno whenever, the ECM tune will only be a good option for me if I can get the software to do it myself... or if Kyle had it because he's here in the spring and fall every year.
 

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Discussion Starter #107
Do you know any guys that get excess heat from adding advance? :frown
 

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Oh....
Since I have access to a dyno whenever, the ECM tune will only be a good option for me if I can get the software to do it myself... or if Kyle had it because he's here in the spring and fall every year.
Fine, rub it in...
 

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Do you know any guys that get excess heat from adding advance?
I wish I had enough knowledge to help you.

Here is a discussion that might give you some insight as to what is happening when you change the timing:

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ignition-timing-vs-heat-distribution-in-the-engine.701885/

Perhaps somewhere in the discussion is information that you will find helpful.

BTW, one thing that caught my eye in the discussion was a brief mention of the fuel octane. What octane fuel are you using and have you tried experimenting with that while keeping the timing a constant?
 

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Discussion Starter #110 (Edited)
@WeekendRider I read that thread :nerd I learned one thing, I'm not crazy, timing can and does effect engine heat development. What's interesting is that I believe that the "heat issues" I've experienced over the last year was due to heat coming off the exhaust headers at the cylinders.

edit:
I'm going to add one more point. My bike "feels" better power wise at +2 than it ever did at +4
 

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According to Matt Smith once he's all set up for it, he will be able to remote tune the ecm on a bike if it's on a dyno.

According to kyle he (kyle) will just be doing base ecm tuning, then finishing off with a pcv, which Rob (originator of ecm tuning on vic and indian) thinks is pointless
 

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According to kyle he (kyle) will just be doing base ecm tuning, then finishing off with a pcv, which Rob (originator of ecm tuning on vic and indian) thinks is pointless
That sounds like a stupid way of doing it. Why even bother with tuning the ecm, if your going to use a pcv anyways
 

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@WeekendRider I read that thread. I learned one thing, I'm not crazy, timing can and does effect engine heat development. What's interesting is that I believe that the "heat issues" I've experienced over the last year was due to heat coming off the exhaust headers at the cylinders.

edit:
I'm going to add one more point. My bike "feels" better power wise at +2 than it ever did at +4
Still curious, what octane fuel are you using?
 

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Discussion Starter #114
Still curious, what octane fuel are you using?
I use super 93. Some of the higher altitude stations in NH only sell up to 91, I've never noticed any difference on that fuel.
 

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That sounds like a stupid way of doing it. Why even bother with tuning the ecm, if your going to use a pcv anyways
I wanna talk to Kyle, but I'm sure he's in Sturgis and busy as hell. He called me a week or so ago and I forgot to ask him about it... but I will...
 

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That sounds like a stupid way of doing it. Why even bother with tuning the ecm, if your going to use a pcv anyways
Because PCV does nothing below 2500.
ECM tuning allows under 2500 to be tickled up to optimum to suit each individual motor.
That's my guess.
 

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From Kyle on facebook
 

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And again since I guess my word doesn't mean ****.
 

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