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Discussion Starter #21
Possible diode issue

The local victory mechanic suggested that it very well could be one of the diodes. This seems to make sense we seem to have current flow in a direction that it should not be flowing and the diodes I assume prevent that. He suggested the tall metal fuses in the blocks were the diode but the did not test out to be diodes I think they are just a different kind of fuse. You can see one in the photo it has 15 printed on the top.

From the wiring diagram it appears their are two diode and they are both located in the "auto cancel turn signal module". That is the part I asked about earlier. It sits next to the ignition switch. Wonder how you test that. Something tells me you just replace and hope.
 

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Keep in mind they reading were taken with the relay removed from the socket. Those are the reading for the contact. What is happening in the relay itself is something I have not checked yet since what is happening beyond the relay seems crazy.
Thanks for this information.

I think this could be pointing to something inside what you call the fuse block. Can you take the block apart and examine it?
 

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The local victory mechanic suggested that it very well could be one of the diodes. This seems to make sense we seem to have current flow in a direction that it should not be flowing and the diodes I assume prevent that. He suggested the tall metal fuses in the blocks were the diode but the did not test out to be diodes I think they are just a different kind of fuse. You can see one in the photo it has 15 printed on the top.

From the wiring diagram it appears their are two diode and they are both located in the "auto cancel turn signal module". That is the part I asked about earlier. It sits next to the ignition switch. Wonder how you test that. Something tells me you just replace and hope.
Diodes block current flow in one direction. The usual failure is they open. I've never seen a diode short (that doesn't mean they can't, I imagine).

You check diodes by removing them from the circuit (disconnect one side) and check it with your multimeter in resistance mode. Measure across the diode itself. If you read high resistance (typically in the K ohm range or higher), swap your probes and you should read very low resistance (typically 100 ohms or less).

Another way to check diodes is with power on and the diode in circuit. You should read full voltage in the reverse direction and approximately 0.7V (or 0.3V, depending on the diode PN junction material (silicon vs germanium)) in the forward direction across the diode. Note that if you use the frame (ground) for reference, you should see a 0.7V (or 0.3V) difference in your readings. I don't recommend this method in your case because you need to isolate the component.

Do the diodes have metallic bodies and large heat sinks (are they bolted to the frame)? If yes and they're bad, your electrical symptoms would be very different. This configuration functions as regulators, not rectifiers, and your electrical system (or major parts of it) would be dead if the component failed.

As the coffee kicks in and I think about this, I highly doubt your bike's issues are caused by failed diodes. Diode failures aren't intermittent. You COULD have loose connections, however.

As the coffee kicks in even more, I'm reminded that this is a DC system. Diodes are used to block one polarity of AC circuits (ie: turn AC into DC), so these diodes have to be in line with the ignition coils and are used to block inductive kickback. If one of these diodes fail, the affected engine cylinder would not fire. This doesn't line up with what I understand of your bike's issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
found some good info on wiring diagram

I will skip the discussion around investigation of the "flasher module" that used the 2008 wiring diagram and jump right to the correct wiring diagram. The first photo is of the wiring diagram showing the pins and numbers and colors of wire and diodes as well as purpose.

After testing with a power source I confirmed that both diodes are working properly but I had seen a reading of 4.58 volts when I was testing while using the wrong wiring diagram so I investigated further.

I ran the power line to pins 2, 3, and 4 which are switched power, right side power input and left side power input. In all three cases I got a reading of 4.58 volts at the ground pin. I got 12.8 volts at other pins but its this 4.58 volts at the ground pin that really probably should not be there. It almost has to be the problem. This test was done with the module on the work bench with an independent battery used as a power source.

So how was I getting 4-5 volts in all those places that should not have had any. Well this really looks like the source. Unfortunately I probably will not know for sure until after I spend $93 dollars for a new module.

The first photo shows the correct wiring diagram and the second photo shows a power line leading to pin 4 through the alligator clip attached to the negative side of the battery on the bench. The positive probe is on pin 5 which is ground.
 

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Can you remove the power module? If yes, remove it and go back to your fuse box and retake your measurements. If they're the same, the power module isn't the problem.

Can't read the diagram. Can you send me a copy via email? If yes, pm me and I'll give you my addy.

I was thinking about what you wrote while taking a shower. Showers are wonderful for that. It seems the relays aren't the issue. The issue is a partial short, not necessarily to ground, somewhere else. A major clue is the non-0V on the load side of the relays with the relays unplugged and the ignition off. This suggests a short to a power line through a resistive component or loose/corroded connection.

I would add that I think you should make a copy of your wiring diagram, get a highlighter, and mark the relay pins on the load side that are showing more than 0V with the ignition off. Then trace these lines. I'll bet they come to a common point (node) or device somewhere. High probability that this is the point of failure.
 

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I will skip the discussion around investigation of the "flasher module" that used the 2008 wiring diagram and jump right to the correct wiring diagram. The first photo is of the wiring diagram showing the pins and numbers and colors of wire and diodes as well as purpose.

After testing with a power source I confirmed that both diodes are working properly but I had seen a reading of 4.58 volts when I was testing while using the wrong wiring diagram so I investigated further.

I ran the power line to pins 2, 3, and 4 which are switched power, right side power input and left side power input. In all three cases I got a reading of 4.58 volts at the ground pin. I got 12.8 volts at other pins but its this 4.58 volts at the ground pin that really probably should not be there. It almost has to be the problem. This test was done with the module on the work bench with an independent battery used as a power source.

So how was I getting 4-5 volts in all those places that should not have had any. Well this really looks like the source. Unfortunately I probably will not know for sure until after I spend $93 dollars for a new module.

The first photo shows the correct wiring diagram and the second photo shows a power line leading to pin 4 through the alligator clip attached to the negative side of the battery on the bench. The positive probe is on pin 5 which is ground.
If yer gettin' approx. 5 VDC to common in any of yer circuits that means there's a poor ground (as others have stated 'bout this problem in other posts). Quit over analyzin' it and look for a poor common!

You've got the print from yer theVOG.net posts. Use it!
 

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If yer gettin' approx. 5 VDC to common in any of yer circuits that means there's a poor ground
You're correct in this statement.

However, the load side of a relay should not be connected to ground. Switching a power form to ground (through a resistive component) is used to bias transistors and FETs, but I can't think of an application for an automotive harness. When done in an electronics module, such as on a motorcycle, the biasing circuit is implemented internal to the module, after the power form (12V) has been reduced and regulated. So yes, maybe the EU is faulty, which is why I suggested the OP remove the EU and retake his measurements.

I think EU failure is unlikely, however, because when the engine DOES run, the OP made no mention of it running rough. Other indicators appear to function normally as well.

The OP states the failure to be of an intermittent nature, thus the voltage measurements on the load side of the relays are probably attributed to partially shorting a power line through a resistive element such as a loose or corroded connection. This is educated, experienced speculation, of course, as I never made my living as an auto mechanic or designer.



I find it poor business practice that manufactures do not provided schematics and wiring diagrams with their user manuals.
 

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what is that blue thing in photo. I haven't read all the seajesting but I'm guessing the turn signal flasher is at fault. My 08 is a bigger flasher box so 09 to 10 might be the same
 

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Discussion Starter #30
It was not the flasher module

I am so pissed off about this. It was not the flasher module based on the new module not fixing the problem and also giving the same readings.

I give up. I loaded the bike on the trailer and its going into the shop. They were generous enough to take the part back if it was not the problem so I will give the mechanic there a shot at it.

Any guesses on how many hours he will put in trying to find the problem. I know I have already put in a good 4 or 5.
 

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I am so pissed off about this. It was not the flasher module based on the new module not fixing the problem and also giving the same readings.

I give up. I loaded the bike on the trailer and its going into the shop. They were generous enough to take the part back if it was not the problem so I will give the mechanic there a shot at it.

Any guesses on how many hours he will put in trying to find the problem. I know I have already put in a good 4 or 5.
Did you take the wiring diagram and using a highlighter, trace the load sides of the relays that read positive voltage with ignition off? This will point to a common component and should be the issue. Any point that contains all of the highlighted lines is suspect, although I suspect a component/module vs a bad connection. I think your intermittent issue is internal to a module.

Flasher didn't make sense. That's usually a resistor/capacitor network or a bimetallic strip and is unlikely to display the symptoms you've described. Is that where the faulty lines converged?

The only thing a mechanic will do is start swapping out modules. If he's lucky, he'll stumble across the failure, like worn insulation or a loose connection.

Anyway, I hope you get back in the wind soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Voltage Regulator Problem

So I gave up and took the bike to the shop and they figured out the problem was with the Voltage Regulator. The mechanic explained how he figured it out and it turned out that he was at a loss for why he was seeing the problem he was seeing so he called Polaris and someone suggested pulling the Voltage Regulator. That put 12 volts back into the system and removed the voltage on the ground side. So now we are waiting for a new aftermarket voltage regulator for $150. Apparently this has also damaged the battery so that is getting replaced also.

Hope this tread helps someone out in the future.
 

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So I gave up and took the bike to the shop and they figured out the problem was with the Voltage Regulator. The mechanic explained how he figured it out and it turned out that he was at a loss for why he was seeing the problem he was seeing so he called Polaris and someone suggested pulling the Voltage Regulator. That put 12 volts back into the system and removed the voltage on the ground side. So now we are waiting for a new aftermarket voltage regulator for $150. Apparently this has also damaged the battery so that is getting replaced also.

Hope this tread helps someone out in the future.
Back in the day when my Harley's ran a generator instead of an alternator/stator the regulator would go bad. They originally came with a mechanical regulator which looked like the old style points distributor but then electrical regulators hit the market which were better but when they went bad they took out the generator so when both had to be replaced at the same time. If just the generator was replaced; the bad regulator would take out the new generator.

An expensive pain in the butt and not the most reliable system. The new stator systems are so much better. The Victory stator system is better, in my opinion, than the Harley system but both are worlds better than the old generator systems cars and bikes used to have.

This concludes the trivia comment of the day. :) Class dismissed. :nerd :grin
 
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