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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So, I have a question for the gear heads here on the form. I’m no genius but a long way from slow. So here is my question. Its kind of old news now that one of the best-looking bikes are no longer in production.
1. Victory Stage 1 Tri-Oval Exhaust or Victory Stage 1 Round Exhaust (required and sold separately), this combined kit generates 20 percent more horsepower and 10 percent more torque than the already potent stock Freedom 106 engine (those are some incredible numbers)
This brings me to the Indian 111, Stage 2 Performance Cams 7% More Horsepower 13% more torque
And the 116ci Stage 3 Big Bore Kit 20% More Horsepower 15% More Torque (they claim the 106 dam near meet these numbers without having to put a big bore kit on. WTF
So whats the better motor and why stop production on a motor that can make these numbers with just cams pipes and a OEM air filter.
I know the thunderstroke has some improvements the freedom doesn’t but not really a game changer.

Is this false advertisement:
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Please give me some majority input on this. A engine that great why trash it.
 

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A engine that great why trash it.
Friend; we've been shaking our collective heads and asking that same question.

One can imagine at some point in the not too distant future Polaris will finally wake up and realize shutting down Victory was the single biggest mistake it ever made.
 

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Imo the TS111 always had a "sluggish" feeling, I did ride a Stage2 111 once, which felt better but the fueling was "twitchy" and it still lacked considerably compared to my Stage1 106. Plus, every single 111 I've been on just makes way too much heat... :(
A few weeks ago I was about to sell or trade my Vic and move to a sport-tourer, just as things were about to come together....it hit me what a stupid move I was making. Yes, my Vic is 5 years old and has a lot of miles on it(almost 60k), its worth pittance money wise, but it is rock solid and runs like a beast, its cammed and tuned 106 is still strong as ever and will move the bike big as fast as I want to go. On top of being comfortable for all day riding and still looking very sharp in its older age.... ;) The bike was simply worth way more to me as a "rider" than the money I could get for it. So I put the nix on any deals. (Sorry MonsterMash )

What I'm wondering is now that Indian is producing a second line of Chieftains(the 2019 new modern body style) Do they have plans to produce a new engine based on the on the Freedom 106 to go in this line??? Hmm..food for thought
 

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The bike was simply worth way more to me as a "rider" than the money I could get for it. So I put the nix on any deals. (Sorry MonsterMash )
:devil lol s'all good brother!
 

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What I'm wondering is now that Indian is producing a second line of Chieftains(the 2019 new modern body style) Do they have plans to produce a new engine based on the on the Freedom 106 to go in this line??? Hmm..food for thought
If they do; I hope it's a water cooled engine but made with fins to give it that air-cooled look and they design the radiator in such a way that it isn't very visible.

Maybe a hybrid air and water cooled engine so the radiator can be much smaller.
 

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Friend; we've been shaking our collective heads and asking that same question.

One can imagine at some point in the not too distant future Polaris will finally wake up and realize shutting down Victory was the single biggest mistake it ever made.
No one who currently runs Polaris will admit to making a 'mistake' by murdering Victory Motorcycles. They're too prideful, and they simply don't have to due to the success of the Polaris Indian brand selling more units than Victory. What they refuse to acknowledge and understand is their Market position. They used to own 2/3rds of the "American' motorcycle industry. Now they only have 1/2 of it. They murderd Victory do to sheer ignorance and pride in buying the Indian brand name. Absolutely EVERYTHING they have planned for Polaris Indian they had readily available and claimed to be doing with Victory Motorcycles. Instead they intentioanlly looted Victory to support Indian. Hence my slogan: "never trust anyone who murdered their own for the one they bought".

The Polaris 111 is likely in its last throws with the introduction of the three riding modes. The modes help reduce and eliminate the delay in the ride by wire system as well as advance the performance criteria quite nicely. I'm frankly surprised they waited this long to introduce the driving modes upgrade. Plus they finally copied H-D (again) by having the rear cylinder turn off under certain conditions. Again, nothing 'new' from Polaris Industries.

The Victory 106 is simply a good design that used tried and true engine building attributes. Nothing really 'new', just what's been done before by others and is known to perform well. Polaris certainly didn't invent anything 'new' in the motorcycle world except the 'brand' of Victory Motorcycles. There certainly isn't a thing 'new' on a Polaris Indian anywhere. Just design cues from decades ago with modern electronics that have been used by others before them.

I'd fully expect Polaris Indian to introduce another 4 valve motor into the mix as either a late 2019 or an early 2020 bike. Yes, it will also very likely have cams on top the heads instead of using pushrods. Polaris used tried and true performance attributes for the Victory brand because that's where they positioned the brand. They used tried and true lower performance cruiser attributes for the Polaris Indian brand because that's where they positioned the brand. Now without Victory for performance, they're trying to introduce those attributes into the Indian line.

As stated, I fully expect Polaris to introduce higher performing tourers and cruisers in the not too distant future. Sadly, the market for expensive ($20K+) motorcycles has certainly seen better days than now. In the end, as much as I love my Victory, Polaris likely made the correct decision by killing Victory and pumping all they have into Polaris Indian. How they did it will forever be wrong and they certainly could have kept Victory with 4 to 6 models. But what's done is done and they can't go back. There's no resuscitation for the brand they murdered except to move some performance attributes to the old and stodgy brand they purchased.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yea, I went to a focus group saw some concepts bike. They looked like what the Indian Chieftain looks like now,But they spoke of a liquid cooled engine 145 hp stock cant remember torq. Bike showed some great numbers. But this was before the shutdown. Im just puzzled at the numbers the 106 can pull with the cams,pipes and a air-filter. Thanks bros, But yes im confused
 

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Discussion Starter #9
A five year old VIC still looks dam good bro..lol Hell I cam off a M109 2006 and a clean 109 still fits in for 2018 such as a 2013 Vic Still bitchen..
 

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On my way home from Atlanta yesterday I stopped at a Polaris Indian dealer to kill some time. The sales rep 'Doc' was nice but didn't have a clue about anything Victory. He thought I was crazy when I asked about a more powerful and higher spinning (4 valve/overhead cam) Polaris engine as the current 111 falls on its face at much over 3500rpm. He said it's beats the snot out of his old H-D. So I asked him what H-D he's comparing the 111 to. I said sure, the 111 will spank an old 2003 H-D but it can't keep up with a mildly tuned Victory 106.

Then I looked at the price tag of the 2019 matte white Dark Horse they had on the floor. It had the Stage 1 which was Freedom True Duals and a Polaris Indian air cleaner. $30,999! Over $30K for bike that IMHO can't hold a candle to just about any used Victory Cross Country. Wow. Wine and Menetto are sure proud of their lineup.

Doc said he didn't have a response to my comment of "Don't trust anyone who kills their own for the one they bought" except that it's a very 'interesting' proposition.

Those running Polaris must see it as simply a 'widget' builder. They certainly don't have the passion or the insite to understand that motorcycles in the price range they make them are more an emotional purchase than anything else. Sure they can tap into the nostalgia of the original Indian brand and have been doing so since day one. But the 2019 Chieftain is actually the first design they came out with that didn't borrow from previous Indians. What did they do? They made it look a lot like an H-D. Come on Polaris, get some actual creativity and uniqueness going.

They're also following the Victory model of releasing the 2019 Chieftain as essentially the Cross Country. Who doesn't fully expect the 2020 Road Master to be a Victory CCT type model with lowers and a trunk using the updated design of the 2019 Chieftain. At least the 2019 Road Master uses the same lower door ventilation as they first used on the 2012 Victory CCT.
 

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The Real
say please add what year and model along with where you live to your signature
 

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Pffttt I don't know the 111 but have read something about and looked over the design. It's NOT A FAIR COMPARISON. The 106 blows it away and if anyone says different they must have a financial reason to say so or owns one that's for sale someday. I'm done with push rod motors I think.
 

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rode a 111 on a testride day recently and it felt very doughy, a lot like a Harley, nice grunt down low but sounded very busy at revs and pulled better with an upshift...
Nothing like my Vegas at all, she pulls like a freight train till past redline...sure the Injun was comfy and my pillion loved it though she missed not having the security of a backrest....specially when I dropped a cog and nailed it!:devil
I got a hit in the ribs for freaking her out :eek
Old technology for the sake of a nostalgia cycle as far as Im concerned.
It was an interesting ride the Dark Horse, but at the price and with cams and better exhaust it might be a different beast.
Im happy with my Vegas
 

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No one who currently runs Polaris will admit to making a 'mistake' by murdering Victory Motorcycles. They're too prideful, and they simply don't have to due to the success of the Polaris Indian brand selling more units than Victory. What they refuse to acknowledge and understand is their Market position. They used to own 2/3rds of the "American' motorcycle industry. Now they only have 1/2 of it. They murderd Victory do to sheer ignorance and pride in buying the Indian brand name. Absolutely EVERYTHING they have planned for Polaris Indian they had readily available and claimed to be doing with Victory Motorcycles. Instead they intentioanlly looted Victory to support Indian. Hence my slogan: "never trust anyone who murdered their own for the one they bought".

The Polaris 111 is likely in its last throws with the introduction of the three riding modes. The modes help reduce and eliminate the delay in the ride by wire system as well as advance the performance criteria quite nicely. I'm frankly surprised they waited this long to introduce the driving modes upgrade. Plus they finally copied H-D (again) by having the rear cylinder turn off under certain conditions. Again, nothing 'new' from Polaris Industries.

The Victory 106 is simply a good design that used tried and true engine building attributes. Nothing really 'new', just what's been done before by others and is known to perform well. Polaris certainly didn't invent anything 'new' in the motorcycle world except the 'brand' of Victory Motorcycles. There certainly isn't a thing 'new' on a Polaris Indian anywhere. Just design cues from decades ago with modern electronics that have been used by others before them.

I'd fully expect Polaris Indian to introduce another 4 valve motor into the mix as either a late 2019 or an early 2020 bike. Yes, it will also very likely have cams on top the heads instead of using pushrods. Polaris used tried and true performance attributes for the Victory brand because that's where they positioned the brand. They used tried and true lower performance cruiser attributes for the Polaris Indian brand because that's where they positioned the brand. Now without Victory for performance, they're trying to introduce those attributes into the Indian line.

As stated, I fully expect Polaris to introduce higher performing tourers and cruisers in the not too distant future. Sadly, the market for expensive ($20K+) motorcycles has certainly seen better days than now. In the end, as much as I love my Victory, Polaris likely made the correct decision by killing Victory and pumping all they have into Polaris Indian. How they did it will forever be wrong and they certainly could have kept Victory with 4 to 6 models. But what's done is done and they can't go back. There's no resuscitation for the brand they murdered except to move some performance attributes to the old and stodgy brand they purchased.
Realize this is an older post but good points made and some have been proven and some others will be shortly if what I read is true ..
 

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I've test ridden the Indian and expected a lot more from the 111 CI motor. I'll keep my XC. I still see as many Victory's around here as Indians and last year at Sturgis there was thousands of Victory's.
 

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I smoked a stock 117 evo HD about 10x with my 106 bolt-on vic ...... So how does a souped up indion vs a souped up Vic ?

Or a stock 106 VS a stock 111

Andre using TaPaTaLk
 

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I think they get better once tuned just like every other bike. I've never test rode one though.

The upcoming (Victory) Indian engine probably will have plenty of power.
 

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Internal combustion engine, think AIR PUMP.

Thunderstroke 111 - traditional push rod, two valves per cylinder. Think traditional, old style design with traditional limits to air movement.

Freedom 106 - overhead cam, four valves per cylinder. Think newer design technology with advanced/improved/increased air movement.

While there are other reasons for the higher performance achieved by the 106, the above rates as more of a major one.
 

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Internal combustion engine, think AIR PUMP.

Thunderstroke 111 - traditional push rod, two valves per cylinder. Think traditional, old style design with traditional limits to air movement.

Freedom 106 - overhead cam, four valves per cylinder. Think newer design technology with advanced/improved/increased air movement.

While there are other reasons for the higher performance achieved by the 106, the above rates as more of a major one.
The multi-valve overhead cam aspect results in a much lighter valve train (all the associated parts, pushrods rockers valves etc in Harley/Indian weigh lots more than Victorys arrangement.
Not only does the stock version flow more air fuel mix , but the engine will rev higher reliably cos of the lighter valve train assembly.
Also the much better flow characteristics of the Victory mean better performance without having to use super aggressive cam profiles(re Harley)... that leave the lower end wanting for power/torque.

Now enhance the Vic with cams, intake, exhaust, and a good tune and you'll never be left wanting.
 

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At the rpm the two engines operate, how you actuate the valves is of little consequence. Pushrods are fine below 7000 rpm.

The Indian 111 is like a Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine. No valve angle (valves are vertical).

The Victory engine will make in excess of 135 HP with the STOCK HEADS and STOCK THROTTLE BODY. This is why they don't have the low end grunt of Harley and Indian... The heads are TOO GOOD!

Additionally, a single throttle body on a "Y" intake will make more power at part throttle so they FEEL strong in normal riding, but if you open it up nothing happens, the engine has no legs.
@The Real
Victory Stage 1 Tri-Oval Exhaust or Victory Stage 1 Round Exhaust (required and sold separately), this combined kit generates 20 percent more horsepower and 10 percent more torque than the already potent stock Freedom 106 engine.
This is a blurb about the stage 2 Victory S&S package including cams and air dam... used with the stage 1 air filter and Tri Oval mufflers (sold separately!)… 20% more power.
However, that works out to a little over 100 HP.
Any decent aftermarket set-up with cams will make closer to 115 HP or almost 40% more power... in other words **** a factory performance package, they suck.
 
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