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This is off subject of Victory motorbikes but as americans should not be ignored. What USADA is doing to Lance Armstrong is so un American. They seem to want to belive other cyclest that tested dirty and are telling how Lance did it without getting caught. If they knew how Lance did it without getting caught. How did they get caught. The man piss tested and passed now they want to belive here say. GIVE THE MAN BACK HIS TITLES AND LIFT YOUR BAN. He is an American and should be treated as such. Innocent untill PROVEN guilty.
 

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He was tested more than 500 times so either this is a total BS case or their drug testers,ndoctors, etc are the most incompetent people on the planet. Their proof Os testimony by a bunch of guys that tested positive and lied
 

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I completely agree...I was disgusted to wake up today and see this on the news. Some people will argue that he deserves it because they "believe" he was cheating...but the OP makes the only point that needs mentioning in this case...HE WAS NEVER PROVEN TO BE GUILTY.

As far as I am concerned, until he comes out and admits he cheated...or they can actually prove he did...he is innocent. Give him back his titles. This is just a sad day for the American way of life. Not to mention a slippery slope for regulation/justice. Apparently all that is needed now is for someone to accuse you and wham....you're guilty. The word of a cheater now carries more weight than the fact that he actually passed every single test he took.
 

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Exactly, they take the word of guys that have been caught cheating and offer them amnesty and the ability to continue racing if they say Lance cheated! This is a complete waste of our tax dollars and a witch hunt at best.
 

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What gets me is the amount of time it took for this whole process. Stripping him of races he won beginning in 1999! Ridiculous. Do I think he took PEDs? You bet! I think the sport has been tainted for years. The top riders like himself are at least on the same playing field because they all take them. Their doctors and team have become specialists in when to take them and how to hide it. Hopefully this helps clean up the sport. I hope it doesn't interfere with all the money he raises for cancer research.
 

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From what I've read

From what I've read, and I've followed cycling for decades and the possibility of him being a cheat has always been there, Lance is giving up the fight because he doesn't want the piles of evidence that they have against him to become public.

As for the tests, the best cheaters have always been just ahead of the tests. They are using things that they do not have test for (thats why that Balco drug was called "The Clear", because there was no test for it).

And while it is not proven, there are many studies that link testicular cancer and the use of different performance enhancing drugs. If someone were to look into it (and there are a couple of articles out that that do) and a link can be found between Lance's actions and his cancer, sadly it will affect his ability to raise funds for cancer.
 

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Yes, the USADA action is complete bullshit. Armstrong never tested positive for doping and they pursued him legally until he quit fighting. Essentially the USADA bullied their way to a victory and their activity is criminally abusive and sets a nasty standard of using heresay in lieu of actual testing, empirical evidence. It's too bad Armstrong quit the fight as this is something that should go to the supreme court.

Now, did Armstrong dope? Sure he did.

And so did every single serious rider who competed in the Tour de France during those days and it continues today.

When your livelihood depends on your athletic performance, you will use whatever means available to win. And if you don't, you're not trying hard enough.

We need to recognize that testing is a farce; athletes have used performance enhancing techniques, including drugs, for decades. Athletes should be educated on the effects to make informed decisions and guided to help them make the best decisions for their career as opposed to learning via locker room gurus.
 

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Another crazy point is that who will be getting the yellow jerseys? In 1999 the guy who got second was busted before for doping, Ullrich got second a couple of years and he was later busted for doping. Who knows, maybe the guy who finished near the end will be getting a yellow jersey!
 

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Imagine you are #2, and after all this time they come to congratulate you for now being the winner.

Talk about a hollow victory.

I would be insulted, and I'd tell them to kiss my arse.

I would love to see riders and fans boycott future events, but I know that is not likely to happen.
 

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This is off subject of Victory motorbikes but as americans should not be ignored. What USADA is doing to Lance Armstrong is so un American.
Actually, prosecuting a war on drugs is very American. I wouldn't confuse the idiotic policies our gov't is known to carry out with being honorable, moral, or even sensible however. But to say it's unAmerican would be technically incorrect. We are the world leaders in persecuting people for ingesting substances not on our govt's approved list.
Ain't freedom great!;)
 

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Actually, prosecuting a war on drugs is very American. I wouldn't confuse the idiotic policies our gov't is known to carry out with being honorable, moral, or even sensible however. But to say it's unAmerican would be technically incorrect. We are the world leaders in persecuting people for ingesting substances not on our govt's approved list.
Ain't freedom great!;)
Not to start an argument, but I also posted that it was un-American...not because it's punishing someone for using drugs...but for the punishment of someone who has not been proven in court to be guilty.

Everyone has their own opinion on this matter...some think it's a fitting punishment and that this will help clean up the sport...some think everyone is cheating and that it's unfair that Lance is taking the brunt of this attack...others don't want to see a guy punished because someone who was proven guilty is trying to reduce their own punishment, or make a buck off of the publicity...and then there are those who could care less if Lance gets punished, as long as they can PROVE it. I would fall into the last category.
 

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Not to start an argument, but I also posted that it was un-American...not because it's punishing someone for using drugs...but for the punishment of someone who has not been proven in court to be guilty.

Everyone has their own opinion on this matter...some think it's a fitting punishment and that this will help clean up the sport...some think everyone is cheating and that it's unfair that Lance is taking the brunt of this attack...others don't want to see a guy punished because someone who was proven guilty is trying to reduce their own punishment, or make a buck off of the publicity...and then there are those who could care less if Lance gets punished, as long as they can PROVE it. I would fall into the last category.
I fall into yet another category. I don't care what they ingest. There are all kinds of new foods/training/drugs/surgery etc that allow people to perform better that they used to. I'm partial to freedom. If someone is willing to sacrifice some health to become the best at whatever, then I say go for it.
Do we get all bent out of shape when an athlete receives a cortisone injection that allows them to compete with an injury? Why not? Babe Ruth didn't have cortisone, how could it be possible to let someone new to compete for his record with such advantages?
Sports is entertainment. People get far too serious about nothing. Personal freedom, OTOH, is something one would think would be a priority to "Americans." Oddly, most Americans are against the concept and prefer gov't telling them what they may and may not ingest.:crzy:
 

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From what I've read, and I've followed cycling for decades and the possibility of him being a cheat has always been there, Lance is giving up the fight because he doesn't want the piles of evidence that they have against him to become public.
Seriously? They been after this guy over a decade and if there is that much evidence against him why aren't they just releasing it?
They don't have ****. He had over 500 testings done through out the years and all they have against him is his buddies saying he did it.



And while it is not proven, there are many studies that link testicular cancer and the use of different performance enhancing drugs. If someone were to look into it (and there are a couple of articles out that that do) and a link can be found between Lance's actions and his cancer.
And another uninformed media based information and a believer.

First...if it's not proven why are you believing it or why are you even bringing it up?

Second...many of the drugs used by the athletes are produced by our own bodies so taking them from outside sources will not cause any harm. It will shut down your own production for a little while but once you stop using them you will go back to your own production in about four weeks. Do not believe the testicles the size of raisins either.

Here is a little important info that you probably didn't know about...A single CC of testosterone shot will be traceable in your system up to eight months. You can not just take a shot and race and be clear of all the traces in a week or two.
The amount of drug the average Bicyclist use can not be compared to the amount these guys use (not even a speck in a bucket) and they don't get testicular cancer. They healthy and most of them have kids.







And Here is Lance with his body with pumped full of steroids. LOL :ltr:




sadly it will affect his ability to raise funds for cancer.
Third...Another uniformed guess. According to the news Livestrong foundation received record breaking donations on the day of the news. Daily donations went up from about $ 3k a day to $ 80k and rising.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-08-24/lance-armstrong-livestrong-response/57309064/1

And Fourth...Look up HRT. I don't know how old you are but if you are near or over 40 it might be time to talk to your doctor about taking some steroids. :eek:


I fall into yet another category. I don't care what they ingest. There are all kinds of new foods/training/drugs/surgery etc that allow people to perform better that they used to. I'm partial to freedom. If someone is willing to sacrifice some health to become the best at whatever, then I say go for it.
Do we get all bent out of shape when an athlete receives a cortisone injection that allows them to compete with an injury? Why not? Babe Ruth didn't have cortisone, how could it be possible to let someone new to compete for his record with such advantages?
Sports is entertainment. People get far too serious about nothing. Personal freedom, OTOH, is something one would think would be a priority to "Americans." Oddly, most Americans are against the concept and prefer gov't telling them what they may and may not ingest.:crzy:

Well said.
Heck you can miss your breakfast and have a poor performance against the guy who had his Wheaties that morning. So blaming the drugs for someones hard work and dedications is total BS

Government needs to stay out of the sports and focus on more important things like education or economy or whatever else that is actually improves the nation and it's citizens.

I'm done! :D
 

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Actually, prosecuting a war on drugs is very American. I wouldn't confuse the idiotic policies our gov't is known to carry out with being honorable, moral, or even sensible however. But to say it's unAmerican would be technically incorrect. We are the world leaders in persecuting people for ingesting substances not on our govt's approved list.
Ain't freedom great!;)
Well said saddlebag!thumb up
 

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On the same vein....On the news tonight (8-27-12) was a story about several soldiers and Marines getting career ending reprimands. Some for peeing on dead Taliban and others for burning Korans that they were ordered to burn. Scapegoats for a PC America? You bet. Thanks Saddle, for your comments.
 

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Bad VV

"Seriously? They been after this guy over a decade and if there is that much evidence against him why aren't they just releasing it?
They don't have ****. He had over 500 testings done through out the years and all they have against him is his buddies saying he did it."

Bad VV, Lance and all of the other cheaters who have big bank backing them up were always ahead of the tests. In some cases, miles ahead of the tests. There has been a lot of science put into cheating in the last half century. These are not people buying vials of steroids in some back alley. Marion Jones passed a lot of tests as well.

As for the steroid/cancer link- there is no definitive proof that smoking causes cancer, but there is a lot of anecdotal proof and there are a number of scientific studies that suggest that it is very bad for you. I suggest a simple google search to find the many places that show links between cancer and steroid use. And what Human Growth hormones and many of the other drugs, abused, is not really know at length but many of the early studies have shown that there are many negative side effects, including cancer. And are you saying that no bodybuilders get testicular cancer? I'm no, and never said that all steroid users get testicular cancer, but the link between cancer and steroids is strong.

Here is a link that was found easily-http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-11-01/steroids-linked-to-cancer-self-harm-birth-defects/712788

And Armstrong was not using the same cocktail of stuff that those juice monkeys use. Plus, they are all young. I would like to see what happens a few decades from now.

Also, Balco and the list of other groups have created chemical regimens for athletes of all types for different reasons. One of the biggest benefits of steroids for athletes is that it allows them to train more because recovery times are drastically cut. It is amazing what you can do when you don't have to plan rest.

Can steroids be beneficial? Yes. They can also be used to fight cancer. But steroid abuse is deadly, and the list of drugs that Armstrong is accused of using is really quite long.

If anything, by allowing this to not go public helps Armstrong because it allows the threat of doubt to persist. It caused the Armstrong supporters who think that this is some witch hunt to rally because the proof is not public. The sad thing, that is why I think he gave up. Innocent people do not give up. An article that I read today stated that he could have kept 5 of his titles if he chose to co-operate, but he didn't.
 

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Do you have any proof he took any kind of a "cocktail". Lance was tested at 6pm, 3am, during the season and during the off season. Never a positive. I rode 41 miles with Lance and the US Postal team, great guy, great attitude and after 500 plus negative tests and my uncanny first impression of people I say he is clean. Like I said earlier if they had proof they would have nailed him long ago. An example of BS is Landis saying Lance kept bags of blood in the frig. Does that even remotely sound plausible?
 

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Do you have any proof he took any kind of a "cocktail". Lance was tested at 6pm, 3am, during the season and during the off season. Never a positive. I rode 41 miles with Lance and the US Postal team, great guy, great attitude and after 500 plus negative tests and my uncanny first impression of people I say he is clean. Like I said earlier if they had proof they would have nailed him long ago. An example of BS is Landis saying Lance kept bags of blood in the frig. Does that even remotely sound plausible?
I don't, but as I said in an earlier post, innocent people usually don't give up when accused of doing something wrong.

And I'm not saying that Lance wasn't nice (though many of his teammates and competitors may say different), and it is also naive to think that nice guys don't cheat (they do). Cheaters are miles ahead of anti-doping agencies, though the tests have been catching up since the last decade.

As for the bags of blood- it is amazing what people have and will do to cheat. In the 80's, a survey known as the Goldman Delemma where over 50% of the high level athlete respondents would take a drug that would make them win every race but die in 5 years. So do bags of blood for blood doping seem plausible? Yes. Very much so.
 

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Correct.

You don't have proof. This is the point.

Neither does the USADA.

They have heresay, which again is all you have - that's circumstantial evidence, at best, and when the people providing it aren't credible because they have cross interests or they lied earlier under oath, the testimonials are worthless.

The USADA is wrong to strip Armstrong of his titles.
 

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Jagular,

If this was an investigation into a crime, and that many people came forward with damning eye witness evidence, and the person wasn't arrested, would you be angry? I would.

And they have not released the evidence they do have, and part of that reason was because Armstrong has chosen not to fight. For me, that is the real smoking gun. I was accused of a petty crime when I was a teenager, and I was told all I had to do was admit my guilt and i was over and done with. I fought it all the way.

To me, giving up is an admission of guilt.

By the way, I agree that stripping him of all his titles is excessive, but he chose not to co-operate, which would have allowed him to keep five of them (I guess the real damning evidence was only for two of the years).
 
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