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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

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Discussion Starter #3
So.....you posted a news article without comment you have nothing so say about it?

OK I'll start then the guy has a ton of money and is pissed off.
Sorry I apologize.
Haven't had time to devote to writing good posts so I am trying to keep what I say to a minimum. I really don't write well.

The other day some folks here were talking about the new Rushmore line from HD. I didn't post because what I had to say was negative and there is enough negativity in the world already. When I saw this I remembered those posts.

I looked at a Rushmore briefly just before buying my X bike.
Antifreeze cooling the heads on a TC just seemed to be asking for trouble and I was pretty certain that new owners would get stuck for the bill for a half finished project as has often happened with anything HD has released in the past. The owners of the CVO 110's didn't work so well when they were new.
Most owners rode from dealer to dealer having the cylinders and head gaskets replaced. The design was defective because the company cheeped out during production of the cylinders. The exceptions to the unfinished bikes were the EVO sportster and the VRod. They actually worked not too badly out of the box.



I bashed HD when I first came here a couple of times and have been trying to hold my tongue since.
But this class action law suit is one of at least 3 now being fought by HD. One case has been in court since 2003. I think if HD spent less on lawyers and just a little more on implementing the wishes of their engineers in their production bikes they would have a wonderful product to reward their loyal followers with. That does not seem to be the Harley way unfortunately.

I find the whole thing pretty disgusting and also very discouraging.
 

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So one guy has over flow problems and his dealer was no help.
I wounder how many others are joining him or is he by him self.
I ride with 4 guys that have new Rushmore cvo's and no problems.
There not very fast and different dealers told them the water cooled heads is mainly there to keep riders cool.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
So one guy has over flow problems and his dealer was no help.
I wounder how many others are joining him or is he by him self.
I ride with 4 guys that have new Rushmore cvo's and no problems.
There not very fast and different dealers told them the water cooled heads is mainly there to keep riders cool.
Could be.
However I would doubt it is just one person who had a problem.
I know that the class action suit on the extreme heat issues that made some years TC's virtually undrivable was not isolated to a single individual. That HD offered special underwear for riders of bikes in that year to deal with the heat, in their accessories catalog was telling.

The cam chain class action suit was based on a problem that affected everyone who owned a TC from 1999 to 2006 when HD redesigned the chain and tensioner system because it was soooo unreliable. They never offered any relief to earlier owners though.

Perhaps you should carry some radiator stop leak in your saddlebag just incase when you go riding with those guys. Could come in handy.:ltr:
 

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Sorry I apologize.
Haven't had time to devote to writing good posts so I am trying to keep what I say to a minimum. I really don't write well.

The other day some folks here were talking about the new Rushmore line from HD. I didn't post because what I had to say was negative and there is enough negativity in the world already. When I saw this I remembered those posts.

I looked at a Rushmore briefly just before buying my X bike.
Antifreeze cooling the heads on a TC just seemed to be asking for trouble and I was pretty certain that new owners would get stuck for the bill for a half finished project as has often happened with anything HD has released in the past. The owners of the CVO 110's didn't work so well when they were new.
Most owners rode from dealer to dealer having the cylinders and head gaskets replaced. The design was defective because the company cheeped out during production of the cylinders. The exceptions to the unfinished bikes were the EVO sportster and the VRod. They actually worked not too badly out of the box.



I bashed HD when I first came here a couple of times and have been trying to hold my tongue since.
But this class action law suit is one of at least 3 now being fought by HD. One case has been in court since 2003. I think if HD spent less on lawyers and just a little more on implementing the wishes of their engineers in their production bikes they would have a wonderful product to reward their loyal followers with. That does not seem to be the Harley way unfortunately.

I find the whole thing pretty disgusting and also very discouraging.
Very well written.
 

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Sorry I apologize.
Haven't had time to devote to writing good posts so I am trying to keep what I say to a minimum. I really don't write well.

The other day some folks here were talking about the new Rushmore line from HD. I didn't post because what I had to say was negative and there is enough negativity in the world already. When I saw this I remembered those posts.

I looked at a Rushmore briefly just before buying my X bike.
Antifreeze cooling the heads on a TC just seemed to be asking for trouble and I was pretty certain that new owners would get stuck for the bill for a half finished project as has often happened with anything HD has released in the past. The owners of the CVO 110's didn't work so well when they were new.
Most owners rode from dealer to dealer having the cylinders and head gaskets replaced. The design was defective because the company cheeped out during production of the cylinders. The exceptions to the unfinished bikes were the EVO sportster and the VRod. They actually worked not too badly out of the box.



I bashed HD when I first came here a couple of times and have been trying to hold my tongue since.
But this class action law suit is one of at least 3 now being fought by HD. One case has been in court since 2003. I think if HD spent less on lawyers and just a little more on implementing the wishes of their engineers in their production bikes they would have a wonderful product to reward their loyal followers with. That does not seem to be the Harley way unfortunately.

I find the whole thing pretty disgusting and also very discouraging.
Very well written.

Agreed, but they have sold a bunch and a few are having problems so it's hard to say if it's widespread. We rarely speak of the good but will stomp our feet at the bad.
 

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Agreed, but they have sold a bunch and a few are having problems so it's hard to say if it's widespread. We rarely speak of the good but will stomp our feet at the bad.
So true.
I try to turn negatives into positives.
and I rarely watch the news...well never actually, but its hard not to when its on the browser of my computer.
 

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So one guy has over flow problems and his dealer was no help.
I wounder how many others are joining him or is he by him self.
I ride with 4 guys that have new Rushmore cvo's and no problems.
There not very fast and different dealers told them the water cooled heads is mainly there to keep riders cool.
There were actually a lot of them that had that problem. From what I've read, most seem to be fixed now though. It wasn't a design flaw, but part issues.
 

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I really don't write well.
:confused:

The other day some folks here were talking about the new Rushmore line from HD. I didn't post because what I had to say was negative and there is enough negativity in the world already. When I saw this I remembered those posts.

Antifreeze cooling the heads on a TC just seemed to be asking for trouble
Not sure why, BMW just did it on its RT and bumped up the compression of it injecting another 15 or 20 horsies. All the magazines thought it was a fantastic upgrade.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
:confused:

The other day some folks here were talking about the new Rushmore line from HD. I didn't post because what I had to say was negative and there is enough negativity in the world already. When I saw this I remembered those posts.



Not sure why, BMW just did it on its RT and bumped up the compression of it injecting another 15 or 20 horsies. All the magazines thought it was a fantastic upgrade.
I've never owned a BMW but they have built their reputation on reliability and producing a finished product. At least that is the impression that I have gotten. I have talked to a few owners of early model bmw's who drove their bikes over 250,000 miles with out much other than typical maintenance. No clutch, no top end overhaul.
Just brake pads and oil changes, valve adjustments etc.

That is not the experience of a typical HD rider.
HD has pushed out a string of engines in the last 15 yrs that have had major reliability problems. There is a huge aftermarket that has grown up producing parts superior to HD's original Screamin Eagle brands. These companies are in business because HD's products have reliability issues and their products address these issues.

Since the CVO 110 was a nightmare for owners it would seem likely that the Rushmore would be similar and it is looking that this might be the case.
 

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Discussion Starter #12

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I've never owned a BMW but they have built their reputation on reliability and producing a finished product. At least that is the impression that I have gotten. I have talked to a few owners of early model bmw's who drove their bikes over 250,000 miles with out much other than typical maintenance. No clutch, no top end overhaul.
Just brake pads and oil changes, valve adjustments etc.

That is not the experience of a typical HD rider.
HD has pushed out a string of engines in the last 15 yrs that have had major reliability problems. There is a huge aftermarket that has grown up producing parts superior to HD's original Screamin Eagle brands. These companies are in business because HD's products have reliability issues and their products address these issues.

Since the CVO 110 was a nightmare for owners it would seem likely that the Rushmore would be similar and it is looking that this might be the case.
According to this article, BMW ranks last in reliability:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/17/is-harley-davidson-the-worst-motorcycle-money-can.aspx

And if you watched Robvision's video of the complexity required to lube some regular maintenance clutch bearing it would either blow your mind or be an excellent dissertation to receive a PHd.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
According to this article, BMW ranks last in reliability:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/17/is-harley-davidson-the-worst-motorcycle-money-can.aspx

And if you watched Robvision's video of the complexity required to lube some regular maintenance clutch bearing it would either blow your mind or be an excellent dissertation to receive a PHd.
Thanks, I'll read the article and I have seen the video.
I was surprised. Apparently it is all the bean counter rage to ring every dime possible out of a good reputation until the brand name is run right into the ground. They were a very reliable brand. Pretty sad.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I read last year that BMW had begun manufacturing some of their smaller bikes in China. I then read a review by a magazine of one of the first bikes from the new Chinese plant. The writer was not impressed and called the bike Chinese junk though he didn't use those exact words.


Here is an article I found that has some pictures and an explanation of the problems with the HD crank and cam drive. It also has a picture of the too small oil pump that came stock for the first 7 years of production in the TC. http://www.hotbikeweb.com/building-stout-twin-cam-crank/?image=3

Try this, when you have a moment, google Harley Davidson crankshaft repair.
You will find an impressive number of companies that service HD cranks. There are at least 3 that manufacture complete crank assemblies. None of which will warrantee their new cranks if you do not pay to have your cases converted to pre 2003 main bearings. That btw is for your protection. Only one of those companies will actually put the bearings in for you so they aren't trying bait and switch you. They just know that the later bearing is junk and when it fails and takes out your new crank you will be mad at them and they don't want that.

I am pretty sure that the average guy who buys a HD doesn't think to himself, "man I can't wait till I get my new bike home so I can put a $1400 crank in it" or " I just can't wait to spend $600 with darkhorse having my crank on my new bike welded and pinned after paying to have it R&R'ed and shipped across the country".

That's a little different from putting on a custom set of mirrors or putting a set of cams and a fuel tuner in it. :)
Getting your crank welded and pinned doesn't make you a single hp. It just makes you poorer.

HD has a problem, actually a few. Basically the emperor has no clothes.

Here is the real rub for me. All these problems come down to HD purposely not putting 2 $10 locking pins or actually hardened steel plugs into their crankshaft when they manufacture it. Those pins that their engineers designed when they originally manufactured that same style crank for use in the XR 750 way back when. Those same pins that S&S does put in when they manufacture replacement cranks for HD twincams.

HD is no dummy and the missing pins are no accident. Harley is the longest lasting American motorcycle manufacturer because they have always carefully studied their buyers and soaked them for everything they will tolerate. Not so unlike other manufacturers only they have always been the best at it. They know that just like Victory riders, that at least 10% of HD's buyers will decide to hot rod their motors to have a bike that is faster than their buddies. It's a testosterone thing. Of that 10%, 30 percent will have crank failures of some sort from the crankshaft twisting because of the missing locking plugs. This will result at minimum of a oil pump and lifter replacements before the bike is sold to some unsuspecting sucker and normally a complete rebuild along with a new crank, cam plate, oil pump, lifters and everything else the metal fragments from the oil pump take out.

This brings in a lot of money for their dealers and sells a lot of very poor performing Screaming eagle parts at an amazingly high markups as well as labor profits. That is what pays for all those leather couches and free Starbucks coffee in the show room.

That's why I have a problem trusting that the Rushmore heads are really a good thing for their loyal customers. If these guys purposely build their bikes with weak cranks to help their dealers bottom line why would I trust them to come up with a well engineered system to cool the heads of their new $40,000 motorcycle. Why not use it as a path to even higher profits for their dealers?
cheers
 

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So...these new Harleys are watercooled?..are they??

whats the world coming to?

just flitted over to the glitzy website, had a look ...nothing about water cooling , something called twin- cooling but they don't elaborate on it.
Funny had to wade down through stereos, heated thinamajigs, comunications, bluetooth, ABS, and lots of other crap to get to the Engine Specs!
Some of us would remember the days when Engine Specs would have been up top, and all that other stuff in a Caddy.
I'm going for a ride!

not much change out of 50K Aust either
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
So...these new Harleys are watercooled?..are they??

whats the world coming to?

just flitted over to the glitzy website, had a look ...nothing about water cooling , something called twin- cooling but they don't elaborate on it.
Funny had to wade down through stereos, heated thinamajigs, comunications, bluetooth, ABS, and lots of other crap to get to the Engine Specs!
Some of us would remember the days when Engine Specs would have been up top, and all that other stuff in a Caddy.
I'm going for a ride!

not much change out of 50K Aust either
Yes they are pretty and have great goo gahs.

Their is no reason they couldn't be much more reliable than they are except that at this point there isn't any demand for that .

I suppose when the last American baby boomer who wants a tangible piece of the American dream to park in his garage buys his bike and takes it home, the accountants and marketing will have a meeting, and take their check from their future government bailout and design something that marketing thinks will turn a different generation of motorcyclist their way. Problem is by then it will probably run on solar be encased in a force field and fart water..:D

Until market demand forces their hand things will pretty much continue as they are. I hope to be still driving my FXR which is amply supported in high quality parts by the flourishing after market that HD's poor reliability has created. It may not go, stop or handle very well but I should be able to continue to get parts for it long after gasoline vehicles are banned.
 

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not right

my friend + former small ducati dealer + very sharp technician said one look at the design + you know its not gonna work well!!! hardly always looks for the cheap way out, then tries to fix it later with revisions still spending little $$$.
 

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