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Discussion Starter #1
Talked to a combat vet probably from the war in Afghanistan or Iraq judging by his age. He saw our sidecar and stopped and was asking some questions about it.

He mentioned that none of the guys he served with no matter how badly screwed up they came back from the war are taking advantage of the VA's PTSD counseling programs. Reason is simple. The first thing they do if you mention PTSD is take away your gun rights never to be seen again. There is no way to appeal either.

This is so sad. You have a man who can't answer that nagging question of why he is still alive when so many he knew are not. He knows first hand that having a gun is the best way to ensure his own survival from experience. In light of what he just went through do you really expect him to give up his 2nd amendment rights on the slim chance that talking about and hashing through the nightmares he finally got free of will help him to be a success in the country that sent him to war? Apparently not



Now even though we can treat these guys and give them a mostly normal life our government has decided that it is better to make the fence just a little too high to climb to get to normalcy. I suppose it is one way to keep the true costs of endless wars hidden from the American people but a very short sighted one.

The governments plan is much simpler. Wait till they are antisocial enough to charge with a crime and babysit them in prison. Why change something that has worked so well for so many decades?

This has to be the ultimate slap in the face for these guys.
Next war I will bet you will see a draft or it will be fought almost entirely by non Americans looking for citizenship, because our kids will not want to serve only to loose the rights they fought for, for obvious reasons.




As a side note, here are the presidents plans for reduction of violence through executive order which are aimed at insuring that no one can own a gun whom the government has decided shouldn't. Even those who are citizens and have never committed any crime.

From here:Forbes Welcome

President Obama has signed 23 executive orders designed to address the problem of gun violence in America. The following are the items addressed:

Gun Violence Reduction Executive Actions:

1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.

2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.

3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.

4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.

5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.

6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.

7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.

8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).

9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.

10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make itwidely available to law enforcement.

11. Nominate an ATF director.

12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.

13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.

14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.

15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effectiveuse of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to developinnovative technologies.

16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.

17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.

18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.

19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.

20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.

21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.

22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.

23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.

It does not appear that any of the executive orders would have any impact on the guns people currently own-or would like to purchase- and that all proposals regarding limiting the availability of assault weapons or large ammunition magazines will be proposed for Congressional action. As such, any potential effort to create a constitutional crisis—or the leveling of charges that the White House has overstepped its executive authority—would hold no validity.
 

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The guy you were talking to is correct. Even worse is that if certain conditions exist troops can be forced out due to the Lauhtenberg Amendment. Basically if a troop is assigned to a job that requires handling weapons or ammunition and they answer yes to certain blocks on the Lauhtenberg they will be restricted from weapons - in many cases if you can't do your job you can get booted.
 

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The Obama administration has successfully created a huge wall in getting care for PTSD and other mental disorders related to combat. Very few combat veterans will seek help from professionals. But I do believe a few will seek help from their "battle buddies" as most veterans still maintain the "Got Your Six" mentality, no matter what branch you serve or served in. The war on our country's veterans continues. It started with substandard care at the VA to stripping us of our rights we fought to protect.

With the Lautenberg Amendment, a Service Member can be barred from re-enlistment or promotion, basically forcing you out if you are convicted of a misdemeanor or felony crime of domestic violence. You could also be involuntarily discharged.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The country is completely clueless to the total costs of war here and now.
I would love to see an intelligent discussion of it during the presidential debates but I'd bet there won't be one word mentioned.

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Pushing the cost of PTSD on to the social services and criminal justice system has been a time honored tradition in our history.
Used to be acceptable because there was no known treatment. Now it is just plain wrong.
These new gun laws are looking at putting a whole new generation of vets behind bars. I feel bad for this latest group of vets, some of these guys are rightfully pretty angry about how they are being treated. That never turns out to be a good thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
:smile Got to love the internet.
Someone has gone to the trouble of building a real time cost of war since 2001 counter.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/war/

How they came up with those figures is right here.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/resources/notes-and-sources/
The trade offs page, what could have been done with that much money is priceless.. https://www.nationalpriorities.org/interactive-data/trade-offs/

That figure doesn't include what we are talking about here, the monetary costs, that we will incur if we continue to squirm out from under our promises to our combat vets. Those cost will truly be staggering.
This is from the "notes" page:

""What is Not Included: Potential future costs, such as future medical care for soldiers and veterans wounded in the war, are not included. These figures also do not include interest payments on the national debt that will result from higher deficits due to war spending. Regular military pay (non-combat pay) and routine military operations and acquisitions are not included except to the extent they may be funded by the non-war portion of OCO."

Anyway it's a neat calculator. Even the advertised costs of war aren't cheap.
 

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Good info Joe! I wonder if they are taking wear and tear on vehicles and/or aircraft into consideration as well. During the Cold War era we had thousands of vehicles that never moved and a large quantity of aircraft that occasionally taxied from ready areas to the runway and back. Now we have vehicles that are getting worn out and aircraft that get more flying hours in a year than they used to get in 10 years.
 

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This **** makes me SICK !:mad: Our Government is about as corrupt as could possibly be , treating our Vets like this , WTF !
 

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This **** makes me SICK !:mad: Our Government is about as corrupt as could possibly be , treating our Vets like this , WTF !
Yet the same old people keep getting reelected. I am of the opinion that the Founding Fathers never intended our Nation to be governed by professional politicians. So how come we have elected officials that have spent 20-50 years in office? I'll tell you why, because they get the money and far too many people worry about the little letter that follows the name of the candidate.

Want to change it? Forget the letter and DO NOT vote for the incumbent even if your letter doesn't match theirs. You can do it...I've been a registered Independent since I was 18. I can hear you now, I've NEVER voted for (insert party here) and because of that attitude I have news for you Bubba , YOU are the problem. You can whine and cry about how fucked up the other side is and while that may be true, that's exactly what they want you to do..squirrel!!! You all fucking fell for it like a ton of horse ****. While you all were not paying attention they slipped you a mickey.

This nation is so polarized that this experiment in Democracy is close to failure. We must take this country back. Quickest way is to never vote an incumbent back in. WE as voters must make it a policy that "one and done" is the new policy. In 6 years we can turn over the Government. After the first round we will have their full and undivided attention. I don't really give a **** who's POTUS, they'll only serve the people that got them elected not us. They are all lying to us and saying what they think we want to hear so they can stay on the public dole.

Just so you know what page I'm on, I'm a middle aged combat Vet. I am heavily involved with the Patriot Riders and I goddamned sure didn't spill the amount of blood I did to escort the bodies of Heroes and Patriots to their final resting place while assholes who have never humped a ruck abuse the power that WE as voters have bestowed upon them. VOTE THE INCUMBENTS OUT
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Yet the same old people keep getting reelected. I am of the opinion that the Founding Fathers never intended our Nation to be governed by professional politicians. So how come we have elected officials that have spent 20-50 years in office? I'll tell you why, because they get the money and far too many people worry about the little letter that follows the name of the candidate.

Want to change it? Forget the letter and DO NOT vote for the incumbent even if your letter doesn't match theirs. You can do it...I've been a registered Independent since I was 18. I can hear you now, I've NEVER voted for (insert party here) and because of that attitude I have news for you Bubba , YOU are the problem. You can whine and cry about how fucked up the other side is and while that may be true, that's exactly what they want you to do..squirrel!!! You all fucking fell for it like a ton of horse ****. While you all were not paying attention they slipped you a mickey.

This nation is so polarized that this experiment in Democracy is close to failure. We must take this country back. Quickest way is to never vote an incumbent back in. WE as voters must make it a policy that "one and done" is the new policy. In 6 years we can turn over the Government. After the first round we will have their full and undivided attention. I don't really give a **** who's POTUS, they'll only serve the people that got them elected not us. They are all lying to us and saying what they think we want to hear so they can stay on the public dole.

Just so you know what page I'm on, I'm a middle aged combat Vet. I am heavily involved with the Patriot Riders and I goddamned sure didn't spill the amount of blood I did to escort the bodies of Heroes and Patriots to their final resting place while assholes who have never humped a ruck abuse the power that WE as voters have bestowed upon them. VOTE THE INCUMBENTS OUT

Thanks for your service and the post.
While I agree that voting the incumbents out is always a good idea I'm not sure that it will work with ending the perpetual discretionary wars like we have had for so long. The Republican candidates for president are all neoconservative and the Dems are all progressives. This is no accident. Their views on liberty and foreign policy are the same. You could just combine the parties and save everyone a lot of money.

Here is what I mean. The founding fathers would have said that those in other nations are free to have whatever government they want as long as they do so on their own soil and do not resort to acts of war against our nation.
I think that is what is meant by this in the declaration of independence :

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

I don't think the founding fathers would have had a problem with others wanting to live under a Muslim government even though they themselves did not want to. The neo's and progressives don't share this view.

It is going to take voting a 3rd party president in who has no ties to the military industrial complex and believes in liberty unlike the neo's and progressives.

Just my opinion. I don't have any real solution but if enough vets start taking about what is going on, on line more people with become aware of the truth. Your input and that of everyone else is priceless.
 

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Joe, we're on the same page and I agree with you 100%.
 

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Until electoral votes go away it doesn't matter who gets the most popular votes. Hell during the last election the winner was announced before all the votes came in from all the states.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Until electoral votes go away it doesn't matter who gets the most popular votes. Hell during the last election the winner was announced before all the votes came in from all the states.
It's pretty messed up isn't it...
 

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Jamming : I have voted "my way" for years also. Sometimes its a "R" sometimes its not. Lots of years ago I voted for term limits. Them SOB's in congress screwed us GI's over a lot of years ago. They made it so our pay raise for COLA had to be voted on and their salieries were a "non votes raise". Some say "oh you cant throw them all out" "then who will be able to know how to run the government?" Well my answer is "how much more fouled up could it be?" Even if we could get rid of 30% of them next election maybe we could get the rest of them's attention.
 
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