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Couldn't have said it better. In my opinion Harley has been feeding off of brand recognition for far too long. Hopefully Victory has opened their eyes. :cool:
 

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I think Victory buyers are a much different group. A lot of them that I met online couldn't stand Harley, and the ones I meet in person are buying them because of their technology and because they are American. To grab this audience, Harley will have to do more than make commercials. They'll have to come up with some new motorcycles and a new power plant to match it of some sort. There's no reason Harley couldn't build a state of the art air-cooled v-twin and slip it into a brand new frame. Put that 100 years to use and don't ask for the Germans help this time.

Maybe in 2014 when harley will not emissions in California they will do something.
 

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I am a new owner of a 2011 Jackpot ( bought April 2011) I had been looking at the bike for 3 years and did buy it for it's unqiness and style.

But I disagree that Harley is going anywhere and that Victory will even come close to surpass them.

1. Victory's dealers are a joke, most all are foreign dealers adding the Victory line as they have Polaris products.

2 The LACK of accessories and the type of fit and finish will get boring fast and please don't tell me about those aftermarket guys whose products look terrible.

3.The lack of product on dealer floors, most dealers are holding 1-4 year bikes with the NEW sticker on them, AND NO current models on the floor except a few Visions and CR Get real guys

4. The Victory owners I have meet to date are indeed past foreign bike riders and DO hate Harleys. After meeting so many of these snobs, I now mostly ignore anybody who goes down this path. ( Case in point, yesterday I rode to Naplam Sports who had the Victory demo truck there, on my nicely finished Jackpot, people were not even friendly, even the store staff had a bad attitude, One guy was civil. I had expected to be amongst family, I was wrong.) HOG Members are not like this at all.

5.With Polaris now bringing Indian onto the market, if they don't fix this dealer, supply, accessories, ownership problerms they will have 1 deal customers.and all the while Harley will continue to have repeat customers.

I live in Vegas and am currently in Texas on a work assignment and see continuity amongst the Victory stores very unappealing. I also won stock in Polaris and will write the CEO of my concerns as I think they are real.
Polaris can and should do better, but will they? Some how I doubt it.

For the record, while I really like my Jackpot, I will not be buying another Victory as I prefer better options from my motorcycle brand supplier.
 

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They had Porche build the V-Rod and the Nova V-4 back in the '80s (which never made production) because Harley knows they can't do it.
This ^^^

Harley has never built a performance engine. They don't know how to do it. That's why they had Porsche do it for them in the past. They know they can't do it so they went and got someone who knows how to do it (which was smart by the way). Every time they have ever released a new engine there is always major problems with it. I honestly believe they just don't have the engineering talent to do it. I think that HD is going to continue down this path as long as Willie G is there.
 

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I am a new owner of a 2011 Jackpot ( bought April 2011) I had been looking at the bike for 3 years and did buy it for it's unqiness and style.

But I disagree that Harley is going anywhere and that Victory will even come close to surpass them.

1. Victory's dealers are a joke, most all are foreign dealers adding the Victory line as they have Polaris products.

............
I don't think you're going to get any argument from anyone here that Victory dealerships are great. We all know that Victory's dealerships are severely lacking. Luckily our bikes are so reliable that we almost never have to visit the service department. But yes, getting accessories and parts can be a major pain the tail compared to HD. It's not that Victory is necessarily bad at it, they are about par with every other manufacturer. It's just that HD does the parts, accessories, and apparel better than anyone else.

I'd have to disagree with you about the HOG events though. Everyone at HOG events are great, just as long as your riding Harley. If not then you can't participate. Some of the arrogant and stuck up people I've ever met were at HOG events.

I personally am not someone who really cares about dealerships and being part of a community. But I can understand that people who are used to the Harley lifestyle (every ride revolves around hanging out at some dealership) could be put off by the fact that no other manufacturer has that going for them. I personally don't really have that need to have a built in social group with my motorcycle. But if someone wants that then HD is probably the brand for you.
 

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I am a new owner of a 2011 Jackpot ( bought April 2011) I had been looking at the bike for 3 years and did buy it for it's unqiness and style.

But I disagree that Harley is going anywhere and that Victory will even come close to surpass them.

1. Victory's dealers are a joke, most all are foreign dealers adding the Victory line as they have Polaris products.

2 The LACK of accessories and the type of fit and finish will get boring fast and please don't tell me about those aftermarket guys whose products look terrible.

3.The lack of product on dealer floors, most dealers are holding 1-4 year bikes with the NEW sticker on them, AND NO current models on the floor except a few Visions and CR Get real guys

4. The Victory owners I have meet to date are indeed past foreign bike riders and DO hate Harleys. After meeting so many of these snobs, I now mostly ignore anybody who goes down this path. ( Case in point, yesterday I rode to Naplam Sports who had the Victory demo truck there, on my nicely finished Jackpot, people were not even friendly, even the store staff had a bad attitude, One guy was civil. I had expected to be amongst family, I was wrong.) HOG Members are not like this at all.

5.With Polaris now bringing Indian onto the market, if they don't fix this dealer, supply, accessories, ownership problerms they will have 1 deal customers.and all the while Harley will continue to have repeat customers.

I live in Vegas and am currently in Texas on a work assignment and see continuity amongst the Victory stores very unappealing. I also won stock in Polaris and will write the CEO of my concerns as I think they are real.
Polaris can and should do better, but will they? Some how I doubt it.

For the record, while I really like my Jackpot, I will not be buying another Victory as I prefer better options from my motorcycle brand supplier.


None of your points changes the fact that Harley needs to update their engines.
 

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None of your points changes the fact that Harley needs to update their engines.
That is your opinion , I have 2008 FXSTC Stage 1 96 which is right there with my 106.

The 110 Screaming eagle in the right platform is an amazing engine.I will have me one soon.

You can keep your fantacies about Harley needing a Honda Gold Wing boat anchor engine but why should you care, you will never buy one.



:ltr:wac
 

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That is your opinion , I have 2008 FXSTC Stage 1 96 which is right there with my 106.

The 110 Screaming eagle in the right platform is an amazing engine.I will have me one soon.

You can keep your fantacies about Harley needing a Honda Gold Wing boat anchor engine but why should you care, you will never buy one.



:ltr:wac
You got that right I will never buy one and I see we have a Harley fanboy here.
What is a 110 engine in a right platform? How much money does it take to bring it there? I used to have a 750 cc Honda shadow and I went everywhere with it and you should've seen the look on my hardley friends when I used to blow by all of their 103 screaming eagle bikes with my little honda. If there is a boat anchor engine in the motorcycle world it is the hardley engine.
You can argue until you are blue in the face how great the Harley engine is but you can't change the fact that in reality, in stock form that engine is the biggest joke you can strap on a bike. 103 stock harley puts about 63 hp and a 750 cc Honda engine ( about 45 cubic inch) puts 50hp. So go ahead tell yourself what makes you feel good but the facts are facts a stock Harley engine is a pure crap.
 

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I am a new owner of a 2011 Jackpot ( bought April 2011) I had been looking at the bike for 3 years and did buy it for it's unqiness and style.

But I disagree that Harley is going anywhere and that Victory will even come close to surpass them.

1. Victory's dealers are a joke, most all are foreign dealers adding the Victory line as they have Polaris products.

2 The LACK of accessories and the type of fit and finish will get boring fast and please don't tell me about those aftermarket guys whose products look terrible.

3.The lack of product on dealer floors, most dealers are holding 1-4 year bikes with the NEW sticker on them, AND NO current models on the floor except a few Visions and CR Get real guys

4. The Victory owners I have meet to date are indeed past foreign bike riders and DO hate Harleys. After meeting so many of these snobs, I now mostly ignore anybody who goes down this path. ( Case in point, yesterday I rode to Naplam Sports who had the Victory demo truck there, on my nicely finished Jackpot, people were not even friendly, even the store staff had a bad attitude, One guy was civil. I had expected to be amongst family, I was wrong.) HOG Members are not like this at all.

5.With Polaris now bringing Indian onto the market, if they don't fix this dealer, supply, accessories, ownership problerms they will have 1 deal customers.and all the while Harley will continue to have repeat customers.

I live in Vegas and am currently in Texas on a work assignment and see continuity amongst the Victory stores very unappealing. I also won stock in Polaris and will write the CEO of my concerns as I think they are real.
Polaris can and should do better, but will they? Some how I doubt it.

For the record, while I really like my Jackpot, I will not be buying another Victory as I prefer better options from my motorcycle brand supplier.
I agree 100%!
HD will be here for another 100+ years and I doubt Victory will ever come close to what HD does. I do get tired of hearing how HD needs to watch their back because Victory is coming. Vic might be taking away some Jap sales but not really hurting HD too much.
HD is an American institution, just like Coke.
How long will Vic be around? I doubt they last 100 years.
They have a long way to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I am a new owner of a 2011 Jackpot ( bought April 2011) I had been looking at the bike for 3 years and did buy it for it's unqiness and style.

But I disagree that Harley is going anywhere and that Victory will even come close to surpass them.

1. Victory's dealers are a joke, most all are foreign dealers adding the Victory line as they have Polaris products.

2 The LACK of accessories and the type of fit and finish will get boring fast and please don't tell me about those aftermarket guys whose products look terrible.

3.The lack of product on dealer floors, most dealers are holding 1-4 year bikes with the NEW sticker on them, AND NO current models on the floor except a few Visions and CR Get real guys

4. The Victory owners I have meet to date are indeed past foreign bike riders and DO hate Harleys. After meeting so many of these snobs, I now mostly ignore anybody who goes down this path. ( Case in point, yesterday I rode to Naplam Sports who had the Victory demo truck there, on my nicely finished Jackpot, people were not even friendly, even the store staff had a bad attitude, One guy was civil. I had expected to be amongst family, I was wrong.) HOG Members are not like this at all.

5.With Polaris now bringing Indian onto the market, if they don't fix this dealer, supply, accessories, ownership problerms they will have 1 deal customers.and all the while Harley will continue to have repeat customers.

I live in Vegas and am currently in Texas on a work assignment and see continuity amongst the Victory stores very unappealing. I also won stock in Polaris and will write the CEO of my concerns as I think they are real.
Polaris can and should do better, but will they? Some how I doubt it.

For the record, while I really like my Jackpot, I will not be buying another Victory as I prefer better options from my motorcycle brand supplier.
I agree HD is not going anywhere and Victory will not come close to their sales. Not in my lifetime anyway.

1) So what!! Victory motorcycle sales are a fraction of HD sales. Do you expect a super Victory dealership on every corner selling only motorcycles. It can't happen. No money in it.
2) You are 100% correct about the accessories. I wish there was way more choices but see number 1. Victory does not sell enough motorcycles to start filling up shelves with variety that HD has. Fit and finish I will admit goes to HD. Vics are very good but not up to HD standards. However the difference would not make me choose one over the other.
3)The 1 to 4 year old new Vics around here are discounted heavily in some dealerships, and not so much in others. Shop around. Latest models are available last time I was in the dealerships. Some of them are selling rather quickly so not around long.
4)We have 8 motorcycle riders where I work, all HDs except for my ride. We ride together and have fun ribbing each other. None of them will ever buy a Vic and thats O.K. They don't hate me and I don't hate them. Often when i'm out I will get questions and a discussion will begin. Mostly good. SOME HD riders and SOME Vic riders are so opinionated that there is no way to have a decent talk. To them I will say have a good ride and see ya. Somehow I'll find a way to sleep that night.
5) Sorry, what I have seen of the Indian motorcycles just does not appeal to ME yet. Even if they come out and sell 15,000 of them do you expect a dealer on on every corner. I don't see it happening any time soon. Sometimes thats the price to pay to be a little different.

Enjoy your new ride whatever it will be.cheers
 

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I think Harley makes wonderful motorcycles. I've never owned one....not because I'm a hater....I'm cheap.....I've never been able to justify the price. I bought a dealer carryover Vision 8 Ball because it was under 12K. I've ridden for a lot of years....and have enjoyed most of the bikes I've owned. I think the thing I like best about my Victory dealer is the excellent technicians that work there even if there is a lack of accessories. I know the resale on the Harley is great and would return more of your investment, but I just have lots of different toys and a limited budget. :O) I don't think I'm missing anything by owning a Victory. It does everything I require and more.
 

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I dunno, other than first laying down a piece of cardboard on the floor, I think I'd let that Harley riding soccer mom park in my garage.

Well, that's about all I have to say on the subject.


cheers
 

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If there is a boat anchor engine in the motorcycle world it is the hardley engine.
You can argue until you are blue in the face how great the Harley engine is but you can't change the fact that in reality, in stock form that engine is the biggest joke you can strap on a bike. 103 stock harley puts about 63 hp.
I think this is a pretty common misconception. I own an FJR that puts out about 120 hp and a Vic that puts out what, 75 hp? How often do I miss the extra 55 hp? Almost never. I don't ride the FJR WFO very often, nor do I ride the Vic WFO very often. Both have nice flat torque bands that allow sufficient power to be available on tap during most riding situations. Should I need to rocket up to 120 mph to escape a raging cager then the FJR will get me there a little faster, but the Vic is far faster than 99% of cars on the road too.

As to Harley, I don't *hate* them. I do wish they would spend more time and effort making their bikes useful instead of fashionable. Their touring bikes are nice, but the low rpm shaking is not endearing to me. They seem comfortable enough, and fixing their frames seems to have made a nice improvement. I don't see what this superior fit and finish thing is all about. When I look at Harleys that have been ridden even moderately for a few years, most look beat down to me. They are very shiny in the showroom, but what isn't?

Most of the aftermarket crap on Harleys looks cheesey to me. I prefer the Vic which made everything right out of the box. It costs me nothing to fix up, looks great, and runs and rides fabulously.

I would have no issue with considering a Harley (or anything else really) that put out the package that Vic puts out at a comparable price.
 

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+ Before I bought my XR, I perused the H-D dealers and their wares. Sales people were pushy - don't cotton to that. Handed a brochure the size of a Sears catalog - the photos of people in it were all badass types with tats and do-rags, etc. Closest bike to what I needed was the Road King. Do they really expect my wife to put a 400 mile day on that passenger seat and with only 3" of suspension under her? Dealers carried mucho clothes and accessories, but I have all the gear I need and I'm not big on accessories.
+ Went to Vic dealers, they had at least one of each model at the time. Not pushy and very patient with me. Found the XR appealing and both dealers offered test rides. That sold me + the unique design, the attention to detail, the power, the contemporary engine, and the list goes on. Nice people featured in the catalog too.
+ I guess I wanted a motorcycle and not a "lifestyle."
+ Re the number of dealers: with the kind of dependability you get with a Vic, who needs a dealer on every street corner?
+ Re accessories: There seems to be a constant flow of new things for Vics coming on the market. Enough to keep me satisfied, but maybe not some others.
+ I think Victory IS taking some H-D riders prisoner. That would be those who are not the committed "lifestylers" but got one because buddies had one, or some other fringe reason.
+ I think those who buy Victorys want something different and technically superior. That certainly describes me. I like the fact that I can find my bike in a parking lot full of other bikes.
+ If that's a soccer mom, what's she doing in front of a tattoo joint? If they're trying to do the "you meet the nicest people on a Harley" thing, they need to hire a different ad agency.
My 2 cents.
 

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I disagree entirely that HD can't build a high tech performance cruiser if it wanted to. Certainly that's not their area of expertise, but with their money it wouldn't be hard to build an organization to do it. But I'm not sure they see that as their market.

Until several months ago I was a Harley owner. I traded it for my High Ball specifically for the performance and reliability I felt a modern engine design would bring, as well as the eye-catching styling. However, when I purchased my Harley it wasn't because of performance or modern technology. It was due to all the "other" factors like it's distinctive look, sound, and feel as well as it's robust third party offerings. Not every buyer puts the emphasis on performance or high technology designs that some of us do, and I understand that.

I wouldn't say I was the typical Harley owner either. Although I got my first Harley when I was 16, it's not been uncommon for me to go after a LOT of different bikes over the years. That's not the typical Harley customer who would NEVER consider not owning a Harley. Some might have a second non-Harley bike, but they'll always have a Harley in the garage.

No other brand short of maybe BMW tends to have that kind of customer loyalty and dedication, so Harley tends to cater to it because that's their bread and butter. I suspect their foray into a performance Harley like the V-Rod has shown them that although there may be some marginal additional market share to be gained, it's probably not worth the investment. That could very easily change in the next few years however as new EPA laws come into effect and they continue to have heating and mechanical problems being competitive with the big displacement V-Twins.

It's becoming increasingly apparent to those that work on them that the twin cam has reached (and maybe exceeded) it's mechanical design limits with the 103. Where will they go from there is anyone's guess. But it wouldn't surprise me given all the rumors floating around that a twin cam replacement is in the making. One thing for sure, it will have to be a rather dramatic design change based on EPA requirements and their competive marketplace....so stay tuned.
 

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I disagree entirely that HD can't build a high tech performance cruiser if it wanted to. Certainly that's not their area of expertise, but with their money it wouldn't be hard to build an organization to do it. But I'm not sure they see that as their market.

Until several months ago I was a Harley owner. I traded it for my High Ball specifically for the performance and reliability I felt a modern engine design would bring, as well as the eye-catching styling. However, when I purchased my Harley it wasn't because of performance or modern technology. It was due to all the "other" factors like it's distinctive look, sound, and feel as well as it's robust third party offerings. Not every buyer puts the emphasis on performance or high technology designs that some of us do, and I understand that.

I wouldn't say I was the typical Harley owner either. Although I got my first Harley when I was 16, it's not been uncommon for me to go after a LOT of different bikes over the years. That's not the typical Harley customer who would NEVER consider not owning a Harley. Some might have a second non-Harley bike, but they'll always have a Harley in the garage.

No other brand short of maybe BMW tends to have that kind of customer loyalty and dedication, so Harley tends to cater to it because that's their bread and butter. I suspect their foray into a performance Harley like the V-Rod has shown them that although there may be some marginal additional market share to be gained, it's probably not worth the investment. That could very easily change in the next few years however as new EPA laws come into effect and they continue to have heating and mechanical problems being competitive with the big displacement V-Twins.

It's becoming increasingly apparent to those that work on them that the twin cam has reached (and maybe exceeded) it's mechanical design limits with the 103. Where will they go from there is anyone's guess. But it wouldn't surprise me given all the rumors floating around that a twin cam replacement is in the making. One thing for sure, it will have to be a rather dramatic design change based on EPA requirements and their competive marketplace....so stay tuned.
What makes the Victory any more likely to pass emissions? I understand we have an extra couple of valves per cylinder to help the engine breath a little better at higher rpms, but aside from that, I don't see the big difference in technologies.

If our big twins (Harleys and Vics) have closed loop fuel control and Catalytic Converters on them, what more can be done to improve them?
 

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What makes the Victory any more likely to pass emissions? I understand we have an extra couple of valves per cylinder to help the engine breath a little better at higher rpms, but aside from that, I don't see the big difference in technologies.

If our big twins (Harleys and Vics) have closed loop fuel control and Catalytic Converters on them, what more can be done to improve them?
This really isn't so much about emissions as it is core engine noise level requirements. Victory may still have some adaptation to do as well, but things like lifters versus OHC's do add to the problem for Harley. Ultimately that's why the industry has been going toward water cooled engines as the water also acts as a sound insulator.

The more important aspect facing Harley is the heat which has been an issue that slowed up the initial release of the twin cam and is rearing it's ugly head even more so as displacement has gotten bigger.
 

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I think the reason so many people who buy Victory's come off metric bikes is pretty simple. I bought my kawaski Vulcan 800 new in 99. I wanted a Harley at the time because I liked the Vtwin cruiser styling. I had never ridden a bike and couldn't afford a harley. Then I spent the next 13 years hearing about how I should have bought a Harley. While seeing them break down and need to be rebuilt under 30000 miles. All this time my little Vulcan gave me nothing but trouble free service for 28000 miles.

So now that I can afford to buy a better bike. I looked at Harleys at a BIG dealership. Sat on them rode them didn't like them at all. The fat bob was the best one I thought but was 16000.

So I go to victory sit on a vagas and it fit perfect had a bigger engine and cost 12000. Soooo what was the reaction of my Harley friends yup you guessed it. Nice bike but YOU SHOUD HAVE BOUGHT A HARLEY. Hey how about nice bike I hope you enjoy it, NOPE. So now I will tell them Hey nice bike, but YOU SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT A VICTORY.
 
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