Victory Motorcycle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 50 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
445 Posts
Actually, any guesses or info on the "products" to help those who can't get to or don't have a dyno tuner locally? Maybe a Lloydz Autotune? Lloydz AFR gauge?
Instant Dyno Tuner.. just add water? :nerd
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,963 Posts
Actually, any guesses or info on the "products" to help those who can't get to or don't have a dyno tuner locally? Maybe a Lloydz Autotune? Lloydz AFR gauge?
Instant Dyno Tuner.. just add water? :nerd
Dial-a-dyno!....just plug your phone into your bike via USB and Ring LLOYDZ for a dial your own ....no olives no anchovies
 
  • Like
Reactions: MC Hammer

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,901 Posts
Maybe a Lloydz Autotune?
Lloydz AFR gauge?
No and no.

I could have sworn the video addressed getting the bike to a COMPETENT dyno tuner....

He said what I always say on the forums. Either the guy knows how to tune a power commander or he doesn't. Local shop here will tune anything from a dirt bike to a Harley to a 'Busa... carburetor or fi... Either you know how to "TUNE" or you don't.

Suzuki DRZ 250 comes in with 15 HP and leaves with 20 HP. That's 25% more power from just getting the jetting right. Tuning is paramount. Bikes with a really bad tune run pretty damned good, so the owners don't know how bad the tune is. THIS is why a good dyno tuner is needed... he'll get the most out of it and make it right.

If it's not right, what is it?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,684 Posts
He did mention he has a couple new products coming out to help the guys who can not get to a "tuner" .....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,215 Posts
He did mention he has a couple new products coming out to help the guys who can not get to a "tuner" .....
Now that would be "nice" I'll be buying that one ..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,005 Posts
To my mind a tuner uses an oxygen sensor to adjust a fuel controller to change the output to his oxygen sensor to attain levels he feels is optimum throughout a range of operation. The end result is based on his technical knowledge/abilities and the characteristics of the engine. The dyno is simply a measuring device that displays the result of that work.

To that end, an experienced master tuner who is proficient with a specific fuel controller, mechanical or electronic, can tune an engine to the same level. He just can't give you a nice shiny picture for bragging rights.

Sure a dyno might help them see room for minimal improvements but that's drag strip stuff and of little real benefit to most of us on the street. It can also show areas of general performance for things such as intake, exhaust, cams, valves, etc but again, an experienced tuner can tell you those things already. The dyno doesn't do anything but show you a picture.

Is a dyno simply a measuring device that allows the less experienced technician to achieve the performance levels previously attained only by the true masters of the craft?

For the masters does it simply transition the measuring parameters from 'seat of the pants' to a documented level. They can get the results faster than multiple timed runs down a track but in the end I think they get to the same conclusion.

It's just a tool.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Power Commander

I need to find someone in my area that knows Victorys! I just had a local shop put on a Power Commander V on my 2012 Cross Country and I picked it up just now. Has less power than when I brought it in!!! The dyno sheet says it produced 67.48 HP and 79.64 torque!?!?!? Stock they are supposed to put out over 90 hp! Anyone in the Inland Empire area of So Cal???
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,178 Posts
I need to find someone in my area that knows Victorys! I just had a local shop put on a Power Commander V on my 2012 Cross Country and I picked it up just now. Has less power than when I brought it in!!! The dyno sheet says it produced 67.48 HP and 79.64 torque!?!?!? Stock they are supposed to put out over 90 hp! Anyone in the Inland Empire area of So Cal???

the 90 is at the crank not wheel, but yes your numbers are low, but dyno ti dyno will show different numbers
 
  • Like
Reactions: half_crazy

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
123 Posts
To my mind a tuner uses an oxygen sensor to adjust a fuel controller to change the output to his oxygen sensor to attain levels he feels is optimum throughout a range of operation. The end result is based on his technical knowledge/abilities and the characteristics of the engine. The dyno is simply a measuring device that displays the result of that work. /QUOTE]

With a speed density system or Alpha-n that is kinda true.

Speed density uses throttle position and rpm to deliver the programed amount of fuel and MAP sensor will adjust based on atmospheric pressure/air density(normally in side of the intake manifold). A temperature sensor will also make corrects to fuel and timing when operating below or above optimal temp.

Alpha-n is a two dimensional fuel map that uses only rpm and throttle position.

When using mass airflow meter, it gets more involved. Now you are rescaling the amount, by weight, of air that is flowing into the engine at each throttle position (measured by volts). You also have to build in a fail safe if the mass air meter goes bad, called load with failed MAF. Injector high and low slope, voltage break point. And this is just the tip of the iceberg with the more complex car/truck tuning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 53canuck

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
123 Posts
This is the difference between the simplistic in concept PC and the software used on cars and trucks.

Look at the number of tables between the two. See how far the slider scale on Delta Force software is up. 60 or so tables ( may only use 25 of them) and then you have a like number functions and scalars.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
123 Posts
Here is the PCV, now there are some other tables in the PC as well such as pressure tables (fuel and ignition). But still a basic system.

What I took from Lloydz was there are a ton that do not even understand basic systems. Do not let them touch your ride.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,901 Posts
To that end, an experienced master tuner who is proficient with a specific fuel controller, mechanical or electronic, can tune an engine to the same level. He just can't give you a nice shiny picture for bragging rights.
Sorry, no. Being a tuner most of my adult life and knowing people who are also quite proficient tuners... all of us say the same thing. "If you want to find out how much you DON'T know about tuning, buy a dyno". There is no substitute for being able to SEE what is going on in REAL TIME. There are lots of people, like you, who think a dyno sheet is just bragging rights on a bar stool. Wrong. A dyno is just a way to have a repeatable and consistent measurement, like a yardstick or tape measure. It doesn't matter if it reads 40 HP or 400 HP... it simply allows you to sample what is going on and see what your changes are doing.

Sure a dyno might help them see room for minimal improvements but that's drag strip stuff and of little real benefit to most of us on the street.
Do you really think that the only place you benefit from an accurate tune is the drag strip? Dyno tuning encompasses every throttle position and every 250 rpm at that throttle position. It is more about drivability and efficiency than about producing maximum horsepower. Most of the time spent on the dyno, tuning your bike, is NOT spent at full throttle. In fact a small percentage of the tuning time is at full throttle.

Full throttle tuning is the EASY part. The hard part is getting the mixture right at idle, tip-in, 2% throttle, and 5% throttle, getting rid of popping, taking the 'abruptness' out of the throttle. It gets easier after that as you go thru 10%, 20%, 40%... If you want your bike to fuel itself well... everywhere, all the time... run cooler, get good fuel mileage, AND make good power, there is nothing like a proper tune and no matter how good you are, the dyno can help you get it better.

I can't tell you how many times people come in thinking their bike runs great. On the dyno it can be seen that the mixture is terrible at several throttle positions. The customer consents to a dyno tune and afterward cannot believe the difference in the bike. "I thought my bike ran great. I was wrong. It runs great NOW".

Accurate tuning is not about bragging rights or drag racing, it's about making your engine as efficient as it can be and the best tool to obtain that is a dyno.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,005 Posts
You've pretty much made my point HC. There are millions of internal combustion engines out there running perfectly fine for the situation they were intended without the benefit of it's own personal day on the dyno. I did note that the dyno helps with getting that every extra little bit of performance, the fine tune, but that level of fixation is for a tiny percentage of users. Certainly not a critical consideration for the majority. If the improvements were huge there would be more dynos around with more competent people that know how to use them. There isn't and that was the whole point of Lloydz presentation.

You can list off all the benefits one can find in the glossy advertising brochures about how much better the world will be with a dyno on every corner but as I said, if it made that much difference in a properly ventilated engine, more would be using the service. Commercial vehicles in particular could see fuel and engine life improvements but not substantially so as to be cost effective. The difference between running very well as designed or striving to get that extra little 1 or 2 percent more is for the drag strip and bragging rights. Nobody goes racing to try to come in fourth.

And whose dyno are you going to believe? Your comment "I thought my bike ran great. I was wrong. It runs great NOW" is best for that day and after that only better than it was with it's original shortfalls. The pros on this forum regularly say that there are differences in every situation. Not only the operator but performance figures can vary depending on who set up the dyno and who ran the test and on what day. And it's temporary. The many contributing factors include air temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, and a few others you are probably familiar with that I don't even know about. That means even an expert dyno tune is only "perfect" for conditions it was done under. Take a trip to the mountains? Not perfect anymore. Take a trip to the ocean? Not "perfect" anymore. Low pressure weather moving in and rain expected? Not "perfect" anymore. Summer temperatures jump by 40 degrees? Not perfect anymore. Travelling and get varying ethanol levels in the fuel? Not "perfect" anymore. Gas company made the switch to season specific fuel? Really not "perfect" anymore.

To attain your 'Accurate tuning is not about bragging rights or drag racing, it's about making your engine as efficient as it can be and the best tool to obtain that is a dyno.' in my own driving I'd need about three dyno runs a month to maintain that perfect tune.

Sorry, I'm not convinced. I'm pretty confident it would be impossible for me to tell the difference between a tune done by Lloyd using his parts, experience and knowledge without the benefit of the dyno and one he did with the dyno. He'd certainly be able to fine tune some tiny difference at the 20% throttle position but I don't believe many without that piece of paper, if anyone, could tell outside the drag strip.

And yeah, it's still about bragging rights too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,005 Posts
Bad Bolt, I can't begin to imagine how the auto techs stay on top of all the electronics in cars and trucks today. In some situations they'd certainly be lost without their sophisticated test gear. Thankfully I haven't had a major recurring electrical problem but I do know a couple at work who did. Factory trained dealer techs with all the resources can still be required to change out more than a couple of interrelated sensors/switches to get to the problematic piece. Damned Engineers.:smile
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
123 Posts
This is like a repost from a few months ago with more detail.

Yes there are many tuners in the auto world that do not use dynos to tune and produce awesome results. Look up RCR Rick Crawford Racing on the Book of Face, he has built on tuned the fastest G8s in the country and no dyno. But he logs many street miles and then hits the strip as well to nail the tune.

A dyno greatly speeds up the process and reduces hours to tune (labor cost) and gets you the 97% solution.

The top tuners normally combine the two, all the hard work is done on the dyno and then a street drive is conducted to finalize those tricky transition points under real world conditions.

As I discussed before, I run dual wide bands with monitor 24/7. I always know the fueling status (afr) , and the stock sensors keeps up with changes in temp, elevation pretty good. I see very little change from target afr so a good tune will be darn good almost anywhere. If your tune is on the edge as to max fuel economy then you may see some negative effects in high temps two up or in major elevation changes. On my bike I run a tad richer at cruise 13.7-.8 and at wot 13.3, yup may give up a horse or two/a couple of mpg but gives margin for bad fuel and extreme environmental changes.

The other thing the wide bands do for you allows you to refine. I have seen several bikes have the same trend after quality tuning. There is a small window between 2500-2800 in 5&6 gear roll-on 15%-20% throttle, think normal passing on the highway that tricks up the fueling. This area is between cruise and the fuel tip-in enrichment that kicks in when there is a rapid increase the throttle position. Anyways back to the 2500-2800 window, on my bike hit would lean out and hang at 15.0-15.4 and with two up, slight detonation. Easy fix added a couple percent of fuel to a few cells and all is good.

Seen this on a couple of other bikes as well. Just an area that is hard to duplicate the load on a dyno or one may not even know if they were not monitoring afr via wide bands on the street.

For most the peace of mind of a quality tune is all that is needed, then there are us gear heads who need to more control.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,901 Posts
You've pretty much made my point HC. There are millions of internal combustion engines out there running perfectly fine for the situation they were intended without the benefit of it's own personal day on the dyno. I did note that the dyno helps with getting that every extra little bit of performance, the fine tune, but that level of fixation is for a tiny percentage of users. Certainly not a critical consideration for the majority. If the improvements were huge there would be more dynos around with more competent people that know how to use them. There isn't and that was the whole point of Lloydz presentation.

You can list off all the benefits one can find in the glossy advertising brochures about how much better the world will be with a dyno on every corner but as I said, if it made that much difference in a properly ventilated engine, more would be using the service. Commercial vehicles in particular could see fuel and engine life improvements but not substantially so as to be cost effective. The difference between running very well as designed or striving to get that extra little 1 or 2 percent more is for the drag strip and bragging rights. Nobody goes racing to try to come in fourth.

And whose dyno are you going to believe? Your comment "I thought my bike ran great. I was wrong. It runs great NOW" is best for that day and after that only better than it was with it's original shortfalls. The pros on this forum regularly say that there are differences in every situation. Not only the operator but performance figures can vary depending on who set up the dyno and who ran the test and on what day. And it's temporary. The many contributing factors include air temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, and a few others you are probably familiar with that I don't even know about. That means even an expert dyno tune is only "perfect" for conditions it was done under. Take a trip to the mountains? Not perfect anymore. Take a trip to the ocean? Not "perfect" anymore. Low pressure weather moving in and rain expected? Not "perfect" anymore. Summer temperatures jump by 40 degrees? Not perfect anymore. Travelling and get varying ethanol levels in the fuel? Not "perfect" anymore. Gas company made the switch to season specific fuel? Really not "perfect" anymore.

To attain your 'Accurate tuning is not about bragging rights or drag racing, it's about making your engine as efficient as it can be and the best tool to obtain that is a dyno.' in my own driving I'd need about three dyno runs a month to maintain that perfect tune.

Sorry, I'm not convinced. I'm pretty confident it would be impossible for me to tell the difference between a tune done by Lloyd using his parts, experience and knowledge without the benefit of the dyno and one he did with the dyno. He'd certainly be able to fine tune some tiny difference at the 20% throttle position but I don't believe many without that piece of paper, if anyone, could tell outside the drag strip.

And yeah, it's still about bragging rights too.
You have many misconceptions stuck in your head as fact. You don't seem to understand the most basic things about fuel injection.

What possible benefit is there to optimal performance at 20% throttle ON A FUCKING DRAG STRIP? You will NEVER be at 20% throttle on a drag strip. Your whole line of reasoning is nonsense. A drag bike only needs to idle and run wide open. Drag racers don't care about drivability.

Your stock bike runs just fine at different elevations and in differing weather conditions. Why is that? Because the ECU has sensors and parameters built in to allow for that. This does not change after a dyno tune. The sensors still work and the ECU still allows for varying weather and elevation.

When you turn on the key and turn on the kill switch... wait 15 seconds before you touch the throttle or start the bike... now your ECU has read the elevation/conditions and when you start the bike it will run great.

Yes, there are variables in fuel. The tune will never be 100% correct for every single scenario... However, the tune will be WAY closer overall and your bike will perform WAY better after a dyno tune by a talented tuner. Period.

I sure wish you were closer to me. I'd be more than happy to show you how much better your bike can run.
 
1 - 20 of 50 Posts
Top