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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Can someone explain nicely what the difference is between the Tea Party and the Neoconservative Republican movement.
I spent a couple of hours reading through a couple of tea party sites and they seem as vague as the books Obama supposedly wrote?
Like this one http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission and http://www.teaparty.org/about-us/
A majority of the things on the Tea Party hit list are the fruits of Republican labors.

Jobs going overseas... Nixon a Republican signed the EPA into existence through executive order raising the cost of doing business here to be too high unless you build plants overseas as your competitors have.

Large government:
Republican presidents such as Ronald Regan and George Bush greatly grew the government. Regan caused employment through massive hiring programs greatly decreasing the unemployment roles but greatly increasing the number of government employees. Yeah he lied. He used to be one of my favorite presidents too until I fact checked his promises.
Bush gave you DHS TSA etc lots of new public employees with tasers and guns in response to the economic recession after 9/11 attacks...

Government intrusion into private lives.
Most recent major attack the Patriot act..by Bush, later reaffirmed by Obama.

Bush originated stimulus and bailouts in the recent 2008 government spending fling.. .

2008 - The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc.
2008 - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
2008 - The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc. bailed out by the federal government and Berkshire Hathaway
2008 - Morgan Stanley bailed out by The Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ
2008-2009 - American International Group, Inc. multiple times
2008 - Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008[45]
2008 - 2008 United Kingdom bank rescue package
2008 - Citigroup Inc.
2008 - Royal Bank of Scotland
2008 - Halifax Bank of Scotland
2008 - General Motors Corporation and Chrysler LLC- though not technically a bailout, a bridge loan was given to the auto manufacturers by the U.S. government, this is referred to by most as a bailout



Heritage foundation designed Romneycare that was the blue print for Obama care. Romney collaborated with Obama on Obamacare.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fsm7em3WWY
http://www.heritage.org/multimedia/video/2007/12/mitt-romney-praises-heritage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyzw1cfUSKc

So someone here who understands the Tea Party please explain why the Tea Party endorses Republicans.
Why not Democrats? or better why not independents?
 

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I'm not sure you know what you just did. You put politics and Tea Party on your title and it doesn't matter what the question is, what the topic is supposed to be or how nicely you ask everybody to respond nicely. Politics get nasty on this forum. Check the number of replies in about a week and you'll see what I mean. This is going to catch fire.

I have no answers for you, no comments other than "you asked for it" lol

Now I'm going to unsubscribe so I don't get sucked in to another one of these things.
 

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....or better why not independents?
This times 1000. I don't typically get into political threads on the internet but you are absolutely right about about this. I would give the Tea Party more credit if they would have been upset when Bush was spending record levels of money. But they never said a peep about deficit spending until a democrat got in office. Obama continued the exact same policies that Bush did. The policies and spending didn't change just the man in the oval office.

The idolization of Reagan confuses me so much. He was a president who did cut taxes, but also raised them. He was for gun control and was for deficit spending. In today's political world he would be a democrat. I'm not saying he wasn't a great president, it's just that he wasn't this great conservative as he is often portrayed today.

I keep hoping that some day people will realize that the two major parties are just two sides of the same coin but I don't think it will ever happen. Neither party has the middle class Americans interests in mind.
 

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Joe - you are from a TOTALLY BLUE state and most likely fly a BLUE FLAG in your front yard and I agree with Rebel Biker that bringing any of this up here on a biking site will only separate people that will otherwise get along with the simple ideology of motorcycling. To what end I ask?

The USofA is a mess... thats a fact no doubt. What you didn't decide to include in your factual (and logical) statement is: Theres not one President who can take all the blame or none of the blame, they are all in fact JUST MEN! just like you and I, they pull their pants on one leg at a time and do the best they can do with what they have been presented.

Obama is not the "Anointed One", the "Messiah", or even a "Rock Star" as many have delivered him as, he is just another man, a black man, a difference that many white people even believed and gave an opportunity to prove himself because thats the way America is - "the land of opportunity"

That opportunity to provide "Hope and Change" to the masses by this man has brought our country to the edge of possible economical extinction by way of debt owed. The bottom line is we are broke as a country, all our government leaders are morally broke and many of the people of this nation are on the take (59% are on welfare of some sort) that percentage includes working at a job for a government that has no profitable income to pay their employees salaries and benefit packages.

Hows that Hope and Change working for ya now?

Take a look back at the fall of the Roman Empire... We could all learn something from the past... but we wont.


Cheers!
 

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He walks up, he looks, he sniffs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,He determines:
There is no clean end of a turd.

Treat it like a puppy. If you can't eat it or play with it, Pee on it and walk away. Go :ride:
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Joe - you are from a TOTALLY BLUE state and most likely fly a BLUE FLAG in your front yard and I agree with Rebel Biker that bringing any of this up here on a biking site will only separate people that will otherwise get along with the simple ideology of motorcycling. To what end I ask?!

No blue flags here. The Republican party has suppressed free markets by regulation to rid it's friends of competition. During election it champions free markets while insuring there will be no free markets through taxation and regulation. Just because I can't vote for them doesn't mean I think that all of us would be better off living in a pre communist state.


Capitalism got us from being serfs in a feudal state to where we are today, increasing our personal wealth rather quickly and effectively.
Communism has led to the impoverishment of every group who has experimented with it. However Capitalism requires free markets to work. The Republican party is as much or more anti free markets as the Democrats in spite of their rhetoric.
If you read our history we have never had free markets.
We almost saw one once. Then Lincoln (R) moved troops on the south to prevent it from opening the first tariff and duty free ports that any states in north America had seen.
Perhaps there were some free markets on the original frontier but our government quickly put the skids on that too.

We did have less regulated and more free(er) markets than the rest of the world for a time which led to our spectacular growth. However had we had true free markets anything might have been possible.

The USofA is a mess... thats a fact no doubt. What you didn't decide to include in your factual (and logical) statement is: Theres not one President who can take all the blame or none of the blame, they are all in fact JUST MEN! just like you and I, they pull their pants on one leg at a time and do the best they can do with what they have been presented.

I agree with everything except the last line of your paragraph.
A close look at history since the civil war would show that our presidents did not do the best they could for the nation. They instead helped special interest groups to use the power of the government to strong arm the majority of our citizens. These acts were to the average citizen's harm but the redistribution of wealth and power was to the profit to the special interest group who had been assisted.

Obama is not the "Anointed One", the "Messiah", or even a "Rock Star" as many have delivered him as, he is just another man, a black man, a difference that many white people even believed and gave an opportunity to prove himself because thats the way America is - "the land of opportunity"

That opportunity to provide "Hope and Change" to the masses by this man has brought our country to the edge of possible economical extinction by way of debt owed. The bottom line is we are broke as a country, all our government leaders are morally broke and many of the people of this nation are on the take (59% are on welfare of some sort) that percentage includes working at a job for a government that has no profitable income to pay their employees salaries and benefit packages.

Hows that Hope and Change working for ya now?!
Isn't it better to discuss what is going on intelligently, and why not here.
Politics are usually discussed in a black and white environment as if things involving people are either right or wrong.

My thoughts are, if the problem involves people and you suddenly come up with a simple solution, you know that the solution is wrong.
People are complex and so are real solutions to their problems.


We will have to sort this out sooner or later. These problems will not solve themselves and the two political parties have no interest in solving them. We may be powerless but we don't have to be ignorant of where we stand.

Take a look back at the fall of the Roman Empire... We could all learn something from the past... but we wont.
Cheers!
Learning and changing are two different things. But it would be better if we learned first.
To what purpose? Maybe we can do politics in a more calm and intelligent fashion because we are bikers?
 

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Capitalism got us from being serfs in a feudal state to where we are today, increasing our personal wealth rather quickly and effectively.
Pahleeze Joe. Laissez Faire capitalism got us robber barons. Unions got us 40 hour work weeks and paid vacations. Gov't regulation got us clean air and water.

Balance in all things my friend. They key is BALANCE. Free markets like NFL football are great. Both also benefit immensely from attentive referees.

Communism
Is a form of gov't where the state owns and supplies all property and resources at its will. Leaders of such govt's are rarely if ever democratically elected. We have almost zero in common with a Communist country.

The Republican party is as much or more anti free markets as the Democrats in spite of their rhetoric.
Now that's a fact.

If you read our history we have never had free markets.
No one ever has or ever will either.

I agree with everything except the last line of your paragraph.
The you are agreeing with that which is factually incorrect.

Saying Obama is responsible for our debt is ludicrous. He was left with an economy on the brink of financial collapse. The biggest deficit in our history was FY2009. FY2009 ran from Sept 30 2008 -Sept 29 2009. That budget was written and implemented by the Bush administration 5 months before Obama ever took office.

That deficit has gone down substantially every year since Obama has been in office.

We have also not been attacked.

We are also free of two wars that were raging when he came into office.

We also have the ability to purchase a health insurance policy and not worry about the insurer trying to screw us do to a pre-existing condition.

Unless you are in the top couple percent of income earners, you also got a permanent tax break.

Job growth has also been positive and increasing during his presidency.

The stock market has damn near tripled over his tenure.

Banks are now paying back the gov't for their malfeasance.

The auto sector is alive and thriving. Letting it die would have damn near ensured our financial unraveling.

OBL is dead.

And on and on and on.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Saddlebag hold that thought.
You covered a lot there and deserve a good reply but I am out of time right now.

Unfortunately things like the 40 hr week , pensions, and competitive wages are the fruits of Capitalists that wanted to keep their expensive to train, highly skilled workers working for them, rather than going into competition against them or working for their competitors. I'll bring proof... If I can't prove it I will feely admit you are right and I am wrong. But proof takes time which I am out of today. Till I have time. Keep that thought.
 

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Saddlebag hold that thought.
You covered a lot there and deserve a good reply but I am out of time right now.

Unfortunately things like the 40 hr week , pensions, and competitive wages are the fruits of Capitalists that wanted to keep their expensive to train, highly skilled workers working for them, rather than going into competition against them or working for their competitors. I'll bring proof... If I can't prove it I will feely admit you are right and I am wrong. But proof takes time which I am out of today. Till I have time. Keep that thought.
I'll save you the trouble.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/03/05/148930/top-five-things-unions/
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Let start by saying that I apologize for saying that you would be wrong. I could have said I believe you are miss informed which is what I believe. Got back to what I was doing and realized I was being an ass and so came back into set it straight.
I've got to get back to what I am doing. I'll look at this too when I have time. In the mean time I hope you will accept my apology.
 

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Let start by saying that I apologize for saying that you would be wrong. I could have said I believe you are miss informed which is what I believe. Got back to what I was doing and realized I was being an ass and so came back into set it straight.
I've got to get back to what I am doing. I'll look at this too when I have time. In the mean time I hope you will accept my apology.
Joe, you are one of the most level headed people to ever discuss politics on this forum. You don't need to apologize for a thing. Conversing with you is a treat! cheers
 

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The you are agreeing with that which is factually incorrect.

Saying Obama is responsible for our debt is ludicrous. He was left with an economy on the brink of financial collapse. The biggest deficit in our history was FY2009. FY2009 ran from Sept 30 2008 -Sept 29 2009. That budget was written and implemented by the Bush administration 5 months before Obama ever took office.

That deficit has gone down substantially every year since Obama has been in office.
So heres where the ship goes upside down.... when politics are discussed....

Never said he was soley responsible for the debt... reading way more into what I wrote than actuality.

The bailout and the stimulus package was decided on as Bush left office with Obama looking on from the sidelines as the "POTUS to be" and they were both in agreement it was the best for the country. Im not blaming either or for that decision, it would have been very hard for any man to make. 1) Prop up your nation with trillions of $$ or 2) Let the nation squander with no intervention..... hmmmm yea tough call.

That deficit has gone down substantially every year since Obama has been in office.
DOWN????? I believe we are quickly approaching $18 TRILLION as we speak. The Obama Administration AND this government are spending $85 Billion per month which equates to just over $1 trillion each year he has been in office. Do you even know what comes after TRILLION?

FACT: On Jan. 20, 2009, the date of Obama's inauguration, the debt held by the public stood at roughly $6.307 trillion, according to the Treasury Department’s calculations. The total debt, or gross federal debt, was about $10.627 trillion.

The debt increase as of Oct. 24, 2013 -- the debt held by the public was about $12.122 trillion and total debt climbed to nearly $17.1 trillion. It is now at $17.8 trillion dollars.

So, since Obama took office, debt held by the public increased by about $6.4 trillion, and total debt increased by about $7.2 trillion.

We have also not been attacked.

We are also free of two wars that were raging when he came into office.

OBL is dead.
How quickly you forget about Christopher Stevens and four other heroes of our military that were killed.... Do you believe this wasnt an attack on our nation? Im sorry but I am part of a large military family and have a son serving this country at the moment. What you may perceive to be "national safety" by this man that you place on a pedestal actually comes from the men and women in uniform and their families that actually sacrifice so much MORE for YOUR freedoms. ALL of the achievements you have listed above have cost many men their lives in performing their duties to this nation, NOT BHO!


We also have the ability to purchase a health insurance policy and not worry about the insurer trying to screw us do to a pre-existing condition.

Unless you are in the top couple percent of income earners, you also got a permanent tax break.

Job growth has also been positive and increasing during his presidency.

The stock market has damn near tripled over his tenure.

Banks are now paying back the gov't for their malfeasance.

The auto sector is alive and thriving. Letting it die would have damn near ensured our financial unraveling.
Im sorry but the rest of that stuff you put in there is all just "Kool-Aid Fuel".... just keep drinking it son. I suggest you find a better facts page then what you posted, not CNN, not Fox, but one that has no bias.... look harder it can be found. One day you will see the truths for what they really are.
 

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Subscribing to this. I hope (probably in vain) it will stay on topic and I'll learn what the Tea Party is all about. I really struggle to watch/read news and learn anything from it anymore. It just seems to be a gaggle of talking heads shouting at each other, and I sort of want to set them all on fire.
 

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1) Prop up your nation with trillions of $$ or 2) Let the nation squander with no intervention..... hmmmm yea tough call.
Not for Congressional Republicans. They were all for your second option. Tough for Obama to get thru what he did and that was largely tax cuts rather than job creating projects.

DOWN?????
Yes down.



You'll note we only had a surplus during the last Democratic president.

I believe we are quickly approaching $18 TRILLION as we speak.
That is total debt. IOW, all the previous deficits added together.

One thing that is often lost on conservative people is that deficits are comprised of two elements. 1) Over spending 2) Lack of sufficient tax revenue.

All the Republican and subsequently Obama tax cutting on top of the huge unemployment caused by the last administration has caused a huge decrease in tax revenue for the gov't. People want to pin big spending on Obama, but it's just factually incorrect. I challenge anyone to name one program that Obama implemented that added to the deficit.

FACT: On Jan. 20, 2009, the date of Obama's inauguration, the debt held by the public stood at roughly $6.307 trillion, according to the Treasury Department’s calculations. The total debt, or gross federal debt, was about $10.627 trillion.

The debt increase as of Oct. 24, 2013 -- the debt held by the public was about $12.122 trillion and total debt climbed to nearly $17.1 trillion. It is now at $17.8 trillion dollars.

So, since Obama took office, debt held by the public increased by about $6.4 trillion, and total debt increased by about $7.2 trillion.
I'll take your word for it. But Obama's lack of financial oversight did not cause the mass unemployment. Obama's shoot first and ask questions later didn't get us into two costly wars where we'll now end up taking care of the people who ended up there for life.

How quickly you forget about Christopher Stevens and four other heroes of our military that were killed..
I didn't forget about anyone. Congress investigated it and didn't find that Obama did a thing wrong. The committees were overwhelmingly Republicans. It's sad, but Obama didn't cause it.

Do you believe this wasnt an attack on our nation?
No.

by this man that you place on a pedestal
I don't place anyone on a pedestal. If he did things I thought were wrong I'd come down on him too. I don't care about labels, I care about facts.

actually comes from the men and women in uniform and their families that actually sacrifice so much MORE for YOUR freedoms.
They aren't there protecting our freedoms. They are there to protect oil supply. Trust me, if Iraq had no resources, we would have never invaded. Saddam was never a military threat to the US, especially after we decimated his military during the Gulf war.

Im sorry but the rest of that stuff you put in there is all just "Kool-Aid Fuel"....
If it's Kool-Aid, then demonstrate specifically what I'm wrong about. I'm always willing to learn. But just because you don't want to believe something doesn't make it false.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
cheers
Check this out 40 hr work week and living wage Henry Ford:
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-factory-workers-get-40-hour-week
Ford did not unionize till 1941

John D Rockefeller instituted pensions some time shortly after 1905 for all employees of Standard Oil Inc.
I don't believe that Standard Oil was ever unionized.
John D made his fortune giving the world access to light by distilling kerosene in an age when lamps were burning whale oil and most of the poor owned candles. He successfully lowered the price of kerosene to a level where even the poor could stay up at night and read.
No government or union hand forcing him to do this. He just felt it was the right thing to do.
This was about 30yrs before most other large companies and corporations established pensions of any kind for their employees.
Page 393 of :http://mises.org/document/3095/Gods-Gold-The-Story-of-Rockefeller-and-His-Times
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Subscribing to this. I hope (probably in vain) it will stay on topic and I'll learn what the Tea Party is all about. I really struggle to watch/read news and learn anything from it anymore. It just seems to be a gaggle of talking heads shouting at each other, and I sort of want to set them all on fire.
I'm with you on this one.
Hopefully someone knowledgeable about the differences between the main stream Republican party and the Tea Party as it lives and breathes will chime in here soon.:crzy:

Did find this: https://mises.org/daily/6646/Yuri-Maltsev-Explains-the-Tea-Party
 

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cheers

Check this out 40 hr work week and living wage Henry Ford:
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-factory-workers-get-40-hour-week
Ford did not unionize till 1941

John D Rockefeller instituted pensions some time shortly after 1905 for all employees of Standard Oil Inc.
I don't believe that Standard Oil was ever unionized.
John D made his fortune giving the world access to light by distilling kerosene in an age when lamps were burning whale oil and most of the poor owned candles. He successfully lowered the price of kerosene to a level where even the poor could stay up at night and read.
No government or union hand forcing him to do this. He just felt it was the right thing to do.
This was about 30yrs before most other large companies and corporations established pensions of any kind for their employees.
Page 393 of :http://mises.org/document/3095/Gods-Gold-The-Story-of-Rockefeller-and-His-Times
Yes, there were two insightful businessmen and a million self centered ones. That ain't good odds for the working class. And since Americans seem to have no memory, history may well repeat itself again:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-pitchforks-are-coming-for-us-plutocrats-108014.html#.U7UmivldV8E
 

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Look Saddlebag... Im not going to get into the politic talking points thing with you because it just doesnt matter to me anymore, My vote doesnt really count anymore and I am just another American that has chosen to sit back and watch what happens from the side lines unfortunately. I know its sad, but my maker has a much better place for me when its time to go home. I'll enjoy this ride while it lasts.

You are a leftist my friend and only see things from that one perspective. That is your right living here as an American. A tea-party 'activist' has a differing perspective than yours and that does not make them any less of a person than you are, but at least is a person that typically concerns themselves with being fiscally conservative and socially in-the-middle. Taking care of "The People" as it is written in our Constitution is their prime objective. I would and will support that ideology anytime - For the People!

And just for the record - your budget 'Deficit' table shown above needs some further explaining for people that don't particularly care about economics and I found a very good perspective on that here using your information:

http://www.theloudtalker.com/?p=177

And all those other kool-aid points? Well all I can say is be careful of what you wish for....

Other than that Im done with politics here. Lets ride!
 
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