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I just got my XCT back from MPH Peninsula, Ohio (authorized Power Commander tuning center) I was pleased with the rideability gains that I got, but was a little disappointed with the H.P. numbers. I started with Ness Big Honkers, Air Filter, and Stage1 reflash. the dyno said 90.47 HP 109.25 TQ. Then with the PCV and with the o2's removed and plugged 91.20 HP 109.49 TQ. The air-fuel ratio was about 13.5 across the spectrum, before it was much leaner down low. I would have liked to seen the stock numbers as a comparison. Am I wrong to be disappointed at spending nearly $800 to get almost no power increase?
 

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The numbers don't change much with a PCV. The ride does. The bike should be running smoother and more responsive. It was probably money well spent in the long run.
 

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You need a better air intake system if you want to increase performance. Have you removed the silencing strip from the airbox? Lloydz will have their new air filter available soon. Should be lots of gains in that.
 

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For what you have. The numbers are pretty spot on. So many people buy things like Power Commanders, and do not need them, nor do they see any tangible improvements. We all thought we were done with peer pressure in high school.....didn't we?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Halfcrazy I do have the strip removed, Kevinx I wanted to cure the low RPM lean condition which I did. I just thought I would get some more ponys in the bargain. Doug at MPH suggested I could get the best of both worlds from a 20 shot of NOX utilizing the dual fuel mapping in the PCV. Under 1000 turnkey

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Doug at MPH suggested I could get the best of both worlds from a 20 shot of NOX
When Lloydie's new airbox is available... That and some cams would be cheaper, the power is always there, and the bottle never runs empty.

Once you try the 20 shot you'll want 50... then more... You'll end up hurting it.

I find the drivability and fuel mileage improvement more than worth the cost of the PC and tune.




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When Lloydie's new airbox is available... That and some cams would be cheaper, the power is always there, and the bottle never runs empty.

Once you try the 20 shot you'll want 50... then more... You'll end up hurting it.

I find the drivability and fuel mileage improvement more than worth the cost of the PC and tune.




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Yes, yes and Most Definitely, YES! thumb up
 

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For what you have. The numbers are pretty spot on. So many people buy things like Power Commanders, and do not need them, nor do they see any tangible improvements. We all thought we were done with peer pressure in high school.....didn't we?
Kevin, so your saying that I'd be better served just adding the D&D exhaust, adding Lloydz new air filter and getting it dynoed?

If so, should I leave the O2 senors plugged in or take them out so bike doesn't run so lean or would this be corrected with a dynoed bike?

If you recommend I take the O2 sensors out will the bike pop on decel?

I thought that was the reason why some folks buy the PCV and auto tuner?

Do you know if Victory new exhaust for the XCT are as good as the D&D's?

If I do buy a PCV and auto tuner do I still need the bike dynoed?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to sort things out prior to making any mistakes and I know your very knowedgeable about these motorcycles.

half_crazy or anyone else please feel free to help me understand all this a little better, thanks guys!
 

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Ran D&D with filter strip removed S1 map and 02 disconnected for the first couple thousand on my XC. Ran like a top. No lean surge or excsessive pops. Power was great, and I guess mpg would have been; if I rode like a sane individual. Next I added cams and nothing else. Ran it like that across the whole winter. Made 106/114 with no fuel controller at all. Mixtures were closer to 14 then 13, but still well within acceptable range. Summer came and the engine felt a little warmer; plus I could force a ping with 89 octane. So I added a VFC3. Still made the same numbers on my Dyno, and temps are down now with the slightly richer mixture. I just installed the new Lloyd's filter and should be spinning her in the next couple of days.
Guess what I'm saying is there is no need to buy a controller with a basically stock engine. S1 mapping is fairly decent, and with the 02 unplugged makes good power without a sacrifice to drivability or expensive or complicated fuel control
 

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I think there are a lot of misperceptions about fuel tuners and why they are useful. Maximum horsepower/torque are not the same thing as responsiveness. Max hp/torque are just numbers that can be produced on a dyno. Responsiveness is about the seat-of-the-pants feel under various, normal riding conditions such as acceleration on the highway, or powering out of a curve at 45 mph, or taking off from a stoplight. Those kind of things balanced against fuel mileage are what you are really in charge of with a fuel tuner. Fuel tuners aren't necessary, but at least the choices about responsiveness and fuel mileage are firmly under YOUR control when you have one.
 

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Fuel tuners aren't necessary, but at least the choices about responsiveness and fuel mileage are firmly under YOUR control when you have one.
It is either right or not, and more people screw the pooch with un- needed controllers then not
 

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It is either right or not, and more people screw the pooch with un- needed controllers then not
Quite honestly that doesn't make sense. If they truly were that useless the marketplace wouldn't be filled with them with a growing number of vendors coming into it all the time, after all you can't fool all the people all the time. And certainly you'd have a VERY hard time convincing any circuit-style racing team (motorcycle or car) that fuel mixtures are either "right or not" and they should get rid of their fuel controllers.

I think it boils down to perspective. If what you are most accustomed to seeing is people that have problems with them, then you'll assume the majority have problems with them. On the other hand, if you see them in widespread use with only a few people having problems, the opposite will be true.

I would agree, however, that if you don't understand the concepts behind fuel tuning and tuners in general it may not be the safest way to go because you can clearly cause some significant problems if you deviate too far.
 

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Quite honestly that doesn't make sense. If they truly were that useless the marketplace wouldn't be filled with them with a growing number of vendors coming into it all the time, after all you can't fool all the people all the time. And certainly you'd have a VERY hard time convincing any circuit-style racing team (motorcycle or car) that fuel mixtures are either "right or not" and they should get rid of their fuel controllers.

I think it boils down to perspective. If what you are most accustomed to seeing is people that have problems with them, then you'll assume the majority have problems with them. On the other hand, if you see them in widespread use with only a few people having problems, the opposite will be true.

I would agree, however, that if you don't understand the concepts behind fuel tuning and tuners in general it may not be the safest way to go because you can clearly cause some significant problems if you deviate too far.

Makes perfect sense. Look how many people bought those electro-shock work out machines.
Yes the are applications that require some type of controller be added, and I have build hundreds of engines that fell in that category. That does not mean that 80+% of them sold are not wasted money, or that of that percentage; most are not tuned properly. I have been doing this stuff for a long time, and have not only broken peoples hearts on my dyno. I have seen an incrdeibly high number of poorly tuned machines with blissfully ignorant owners. They thought that their bikes ran great. Hell I just had a guy come over from Texas[18hours] to fix the mess made by 4 different shops. As I said. For most people. It is money wasted
 

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"A fool and his money are soon parted".

If you aren't a wrencher and you don't know anything about a device you want installed on your motorcycle, you must do the research on it. The some goes for the shop and the mechanic that is doing the install. If you haven't heard the right things from other riders that have had similar work done, don't let them touch it!.
 

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If you aren't a wrencher and you don't know anything about a device you want installed on your motorcycle, you must do the research on it.
There are 2 sides to this coin.

On the one side there is the average Joe. He doesn't want to do research, he doesn't want to study the physics of airflow and the intricacies of fuel injection. He just wants the bike to sound better than stock... have a nice rumble... and pipes that look cool are a plus as well. He doesn't care about power gains or air/fuel ratios, all he wants is an inexpensive, quick, and easy way to get a powerful sound and not open a can of worms in the process.

The other side of the coin is that as the owner of the bike, ultimately, YOU are responsible for the final results you get. Most times you get out what you put in... and sometimes it's worth a few hours of reading to insure that you are not doing something that will create more issues than it's worth.

Victory supposedly has the easy answer with their stage 1 packages. However, how many times have you read complaints about the stage 1 package by owners who have had it done? The bike pops like crazy, gets crappy mileage, stalls out at stoplights, or runs hot?

Most folks would say that Victory is to blame... I would tend to agree with that... but as the owner, if the bike runs badly it's your problem. You have to ride it. The one thing that is most certain is that no one will care how well it runs quite as much as you do.

Are fuel controllers a waste of money? The first one I bought was. It wouldn't do what I needed it to do. Got rid of that and got the Power Commander. What I paid for it and the tuning was money well spent. Why? Because I am completely satisfied with my bike now. Hard to put a price on that.
 

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Makes perfect sense. Look how many people bought those electro-shock work out machines.
Yes the are applications that require some type of controller be added, and I have build hundreds of engines that fell in that category. That does not mean that 80+% of them sold are not wasted money, or that of that percentage; most are not tuned properly. I have been doing this stuff for a long time, and have not only broken peoples hearts on my dyno. I have seen an incrdeibly high number of poorly tuned machines with blissfully ignorant owners. They thought that their bikes ran great. Hell I just had a guy come over from Texas[18hours] to fix the mess made by 4 different shops. As I said. For most people. It is money wasted
AMEN thumb upthumb up
 

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"A fool and his money are soon parted".

If you aren't a wrencher and you don't know anything about a device you want installed on your motorcycle, you must do the research on it. The some goes for the shop and the mechanic that is doing the install. If you haven't heard the right things from other riders that have had similar work done, don't let them touch it!.

Amen

I have a totally stock Hi ball, except for home made mufflers. 5 Dollars to get the sound I wanted then reduicing the inside diameter with fiberglass packing to get the torque back.
Can outrun every Hardly in town. So why do I need to spend 1500bucks for 6 more HP. Ohhh the stories I could tell ya about PC whatevers.:ltr: Chinese parts with a 30 % failure rate.
Gullibility is half the problem with this country.
Your wallets open then your butt dyno gets all outta calibration:ltr::ltr:
 
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