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Discussion Starter #1
I know there are posts on this, but I still can't get a handle on whether or not disconnecting the 106's O2 sensors helps or hurts the stock engine and/or performance.
I bought my 2013 XC used(6k), the dealer was not sure if anything has been done to it. As far as I can tell it has stock parts and no turner is present. However, when I get on it, the exhaust really howls, I get some decel. popping, an occasional "upshift pop" and a slight surging at steady speeds sometimes. I get the feeling the engine is running lean, maybe the previous owner drilled the pipes or added a hiflow af.
I don't want to start buying parts, adding tuners and such but after reading about disconnecting the O2 sensors to cause the engine to run richer for zero $$. I started looking into it and I found lots of conflicting info out there(big surprise, right..)
So here's my questions: Does disconnecting the O2 sensors cause the 106 to run richer? and Can doing this be harmful to the engine?
thanks
 

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I know there are posts on this, but I still can't get a handle on whether or not disconnecting the 106's O2 sensors helps or hurts the stock engine and/or performance.
I bought my 2013 XC used(6k), the dealer was not sure if anything has been done to it. As far as I can tell it has stock parts and no turner is present. However, when I get on it, the exhaust really howls, I get some decel. popping, an occasional "upshift pop" and a slight surging at steady speeds sometimes. I get the feeling the engine is running lean, maybe the previous owner drilled the pipes or added a hiflow af.
I don't want to start buying parts, adding tuners and such but after reading about disconnecting the O2 sensors to cause the engine to run richer for zero $$. I started looking into it and I found lots of conflicting info out there(big surprise, right..)
So here's my questions: Does disconnecting the O2 sensors cause the 106 to run richer? and Can doing this be harmful to the engine?
thanks
The engine runs super lean with them connected. The engine runs slightly less lean with them disconnected. The engine does not run rich or anywhere close to being rich either way.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I guess it can't hurt to try......:confused:
 

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and in some cases, it actually makes the bike run even leaner...per LLoyd
 

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Discussion Starter #5
and in some cases, it actually makes the bike run even leaner...per LLoyd
I knew I shouldn't have asked....In every thing I've read on this subject its the same deal, opinions go from one side to the other.
This one isn't going to be any different.......
 

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Some have reported hair loss, while others have lost or gained weight. cheers Disconnecting them takes about 10 seconds. Ride it for 50 miles or so so the ECM gets a chance to adjust, and if you don't think it's running better, plug them back in, and forget everyone else's results.
 

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and in some cases, it actually makes the bike run even leaner...per LLoyd
Which makes perfect sense. The whole purpose of using real time sensors is to correct for system disturbances that cause the output to veer too far from the desired setpoints...in our case, dictated by an open loop map.

The O2 sensors measure turn on/off when they detect an afr on either side of stoich 14.7:1. The ECU can then use this info to drive the output back to near stoich regardless of the commands directed from the underlying open loop map.

Half Crazy recently witnessed a Vic at a tuning event with unplugged O2s running at 15.5:1!

There are several influential people amongst us who insist that all the O2 sensors do is switch between a lean and a leaner open loop map. No other narrowband feedback system I've read about works in such a manner. I have a hard time Vic engineers would do such a thing even if they could. More than likely, they're buying the same hardware/software from Delphi as everyone else.

I'm with Lloyd.

I recently read a piece from a Harley tuner that said that the Harley open loop map is designed to try to keep the afr output at 14.6:1 across all possible load/rpm conditions. In that case, the sensors should act to just barely fine tune the output to 14.7:1. But should there be a disturbance in the system the drives the output much richer/leaner, the sensors are there to get it back on track.

That is precisely why you'd want to remove the sensors if you have a fuel controller intentionally richening the open loop map mix.
 

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Try disconnecting them and see.....I had no qualms about disconnecting mine
 

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Why not start at the beginning and start investigating to see if you have an altered bike or not. Take the tank off and see if the filter is stock or a K&N style. You don't really need to take the tank off all the way, just enough so you can raise the front and see (white filter is stock, blue or red is aftermarket). Look inside the exhaust. Can you see all the way up it when you shine a light. If so you have some sort of aftermarket pipes. Take the side covers off and see if you see an aftermarket tuner. Don't just start unplugging things because "you think" that might solve the problem.
 

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Why not start at the beginning and start investigating to see if you have an altered bike or not. Take the tank off and see if the filter is stock or a K&N style. You don't really need to take the tank off all the way, just enough so you can raise the front and see (white filter is stock, blue or red is aftermarket). Look inside the exhaust. Can you see all the way up it when you shine a light. If so you have some sort of aftermarket pipes. Take the side covers off and see if you see an aftermarket tuner. Don't just start unplugging things because "you think" that might solve the problem.
Best response I've read yet. You always want to know where your starting before you make adjustments. And verfying what you have (stock or mod) is free and easy.
 

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Why not start at the beginning and start investigating to see if you have an altered bike or not. Take the tank off and see if the filter is stock or a K&N style. You don't really need to take the tank off all the way, just enough so you can raise the front and see (white filter is stock, blue or red is aftermarket). Look inside the exhaust. Can you see all the way up it when you shine a light. If so you have some sort of aftermarket pipes. Take the side covers off and see if you see an aftermarket tuner. Don't just start unplugging things because "you think" that might solve the problem.
Especially since if the bike's open loop map was created for a bike with stock, air restrictive components. If someone put less air restrictive components i.e. aftermarket pipe/air-cleaner on your bike, then it will be allowing more air into the engine. More air, same fuel means leaner. The O2s will correct that at steady state inputs, but at higher rpm operation, they will not.

Nothing in life is free. If your bike isn't running properly, find someone who can make it run properly. If you spend any time reading through our archives for how it turns out when people make random modifications, you'll see it often doesn't turn out well.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for the input, so you all know, I'm not mechanic but I'm not new to motorcycles. I do my own maintenance and don't mind getting into the bike once in awhile, but I definitely like to ride them more than wrench them. This is my first Vic, I've been around motorcycles since I was 10(~37 years ;) ) for the most part I understand how they work and what effects what.
I spent way too much time and money "working" on my Harleys, my intent in getting a Vic was to "gas it, oil it and ride the hell out of it". I love this XC and am going to keep it a long time, which is my main concern if it is running overly lean for some reason.
Based on the fact, I bought it used and don't know what, if anything, has been done to it, I suspect the engine is running in a lean condition and disconnecting the O2 sensors seems like an iffy fix at best. I decided to drop a few bucks and take care of the tuning for the life of the bike.
I'm ordering a Cobra Fi2000 PowrPro Tuner. If this turner works like I've read, it should dial-in for whatever I have now and if I add louder mufflers and a high-flow af down the road, it'll auto-tune for those.
btw: I did not just discover the Fi2000. I've considered one for both my HDs and probably should have gone with it instead of using programmable/map tuners that were really a pain in the ass.
 

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I always think my 2012 CrossRoads runs better disconneted for about the first few miles. I then want to quickly change back when the bike starts running poorly in the lower rpms around town and pops like crazy. I put glasspacks in my stock exhaust cans, and I run my timing +4. The gas mileage is indeed a few MPG better disconnected, which probably means it is running leaner in areas. I don't subscribe to the bike gets better fuel economy when it is richer line, that just doesn't make sense. I am in the aerospace field and have tons of engineering and real world practice. A factor that no one mentions except S Mullen over at Nightrider, maker of XiED products, is that there is an adaptive mode going on in the ECM. In the case of the HD Delphi system, it has been verified through the available HD tuning software, that the corrections the ECM makes with the NB O2 sensors, are carried over to the open loop map as well. Long term trim in essence. We don't have software to look at our maps, so we can't verify how our ECM works. Everyone is guessing. My guess is that with the sensors unplugged, you are kissing long term trim goodbye, and the bike won't run as good, unless you are running a fuel controller. One more thing to note, is that the AFR up the tailpipe on a dyno is after the cat, and gets more O2 and might not perfectly match the AFR in the headpipe where the NB O2 sensor makes its corrections.
 

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I love this XC and am going to keep it a long time, which is my main concern if it is running overly lean for some reason.
Someone posted an interesting chart on another forum recently. It showed that while the exhaust gas temp decreased running either rich or lean of stoich (potentially leading to it feeling as if it's running cooler), the cylinder temperature actually increased as a gas engine runs richer vs leaner.

There are two problems with this.

1. It's excessive cylinder temps that will reduce an engine's life.

2. It's cool operating temps and rich operating conditions that will reduce the life of our catalytic converters.

While it may come as a surprise, sometimes the engineers who get paid to design our products know more about them than us jabbering away on forums...Perish the thought!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
A factor that no one mentions except S Mullen over at Nightrider, maker of XiED products, is that there is an adaptive mode going on in the ECM.
Damn! I forgot about Nightrider and his XIEDs....Never dawned on me he might have a a product for the Vics. :mad:
They make an XiED, and its only $79! These things work great and would be perfect for my setup.
I called to cancel order on the Fi2000 hopefully I caught it in time. If I did I'm ordering the XiED asap.
http://sales.nightrider.com/victory-xied.html
 

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I have the Vied, adjustable Xied, and it does work well, but it usually throws a check engine light during warm up, then as soon as the sensors are up to temp, the vied altered voltage falls back within acceptable range of the ecm programming and the cel goes out,. It's enough to drive you crazy, even though it is expected normal operation with the ViED's.
 

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Damn! I forgot about Nightrider and his XIEDs....Never dawned on me he might have a a product for the Vics. :mad:
They make an XiED, and its only $79! These things work great and would be perfect for my setup.
I called to cancel order on the Fi2000 hopefully I caught it in time. If I did I'm ordering the XiED asap.
http://sales.nightrider.com/victory-xied.html
"Closed Loop" O2 controlled fuel delivery takes place when our bikes are in steady state. IOW, when out bikes our rolling down the freeway at a steady speed.

O2 sensors are designed to keep them running near a stoich afr at such operating conditions.

Xieds fool our bikes ECU by altering the voltage from the O2 sensors.

What this means is that Xieds can make a bike with a stock FI map and stock intake and exhaust, run richer at steady state throttle inputs. They should have no effect on open loop, hard acceleration applications.

Running rich at the conditions described above will result in a lowering of exhaust gas temps. This will make the bike appear cooler to the rider, even if cylinder temps may increase and the operating temps of the cats decrease, thereby shortening their lives.

If one has higher flowing components and runs Xieds, their fuel map may be insufficient to operate with higher flow air clean and pipes. without running lean.
 

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Saddlebag, with the Delphi on HD, the XiED shows the ECM the system is running leaner than expected and it actually writes a richer trim in the Open Loop side. We're kind of guessing ours does this too. I think with mild intake, exhaust, the XiED will help the bike run slightly richer than an all stock bike would. The old danger of making a lean bike leaner with air exh mods, is mitigated, and proven on an HD anyway. I wish I could figure out how to switch them off during warm up and restart, cause that CEL realy messes with the OCD in my brain.
 

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I couldn't find it buy Rylan from The Vic Shop said the XiED did not do much of any thing for a Vic and its all most a waist of money.
Keep in mind the XiED was designed for a harley that has a more sophisticated ECM
 
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