Victory Motorcycle Forum banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have a new Cross Roads Classic and I am trying to improve torque and power particularly at the low end. I am running D&D pipes with the Vic performance air filter and the Stage I flash but after lots of research and reading I have decided that I will do a Lloyds cam upgrade to get a bit more grunt.

Unfortunately I think I have just missed one of Kevin X's cam parties here in California and it will be presumably be a while before he is out here again.

The bike is running OK but not perfect. I does have a bit more power than stock but there is some popping on both upshifts and deceleration Nothing too bad but it would be nice to get the bike running optimally.

My question (after a long winded intro :)) is what benefits will I get if I do a PC V install and have it dyno tuned while I wait for the cam upgrade? I expect it will run smoother but will there be any performance improvement?

BTW I did call Arizona Victory and they basically dismissed the Lloyds cams in favour of Andrews 483's and also said they need to remove the motor to do the job properly so it will be a $2500 bill

Any help or advice would be appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
I guess thinking about the economics of it. The PC is needed for the cams install so its only the first dyno tune (maybe $300) that's an additional cost as I assume I would have to get it redone after the cam install
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
329 Posts
I have a similar setup (RPW pipes, Vic High Performance Air Filter) but I have the PCV and I had it dyno tuned. I would imagine that the dyno tuned PCV would run a little better and make a little more HP but in reality I doubt it makes that much of a difference. I bought the PCV because I'm planning on adding cams in the future. But most of the information that I've seen posted by KevinX seems to say that the stage 1 flash is adequate for your setup.

Let me say this. If you're trying to eliminate the popping with the PCV it probably won't work. My bike even after having a custom map built would still pop like crazy on shifts and decel. The tuner even tried to really increase the fuel at the closed throttle positions and it still popped really bad. I just bought the IAV from LLoydz to try to eliminate the popping and I am still working on getting it adjusted correctly. But to date the IAV has been the most effective tool that I have used to eliminate the popping during shifts and decel.

I am interested in hearing more feedback about the andrews cams though. Up until now everything that I have heard about cams has basically been LLoydz cams. I wonder why the dealership recommended the Andrews cams? They could be interesting because they look considerably cheaper than the LLoydz cams.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
632 Posts
The Andrews 438 cams require more than stock compression to function adequately, and even with a built motor, the S&S 495's are better. That being said, neither will work in your motor. They were designed before the newer closed loop 106 motors came out, and I don't believe will work with the cam carriers. Your only choice in a cam upgrade really is the VM1-DR cams from Lloydz. However, in my experience, they push the TQ curve higher and longer, so the rev xtend feature of the PC-V or Lloydz reprogrammed ECU would be a must. You will lose some low end torque with them too. Some of that can be reclaimed with Lloydz variable timing wheel (gear).

As for the labor, the motor does NOT need to come out. The shop that quoted you $2500 is clearly not aware of this fact. They also aren't aware that the 438's won't fit either.

As for the PC-V, for the price of the dyno tune you'll be paying for, just buy the piggyback auto tune module, and never have to pay for a dyno at all.

As an aside, I have the Lloydz VM1-DR cams, variable intake (Vision only), Ness twin sucker intake, Lloydz timing wheel advanced 2 degrees, and a PC-V with Autotune. My bike does not "pop".. EVER.... It took both the variable intake and the timing wheel for me to regain the low end torque I lost with the cams.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd try the new Cobra Power Pro CVT, and keep the setup you have, since low end torque is important to you. I would also make sure that you do indeed have the stage 1 flash loaded on your ECU.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
The Andrews 438 cams require more than stock compression to function adequately, and even with a built motor, the S&S 495's are better. That being said, neither will work in your motor. They were designed before the newer closed loop 106 motors came out, and I don't believe will work with the cam carriers. Your only choice in a cam upgrade really is the VM1-DR cams from Lloydz. However, in my experience, they push the TQ curve higher and longer, so the rev xtend feature of the PC-V or Lloydz reprogrammed ECU would be a must. You will lose some low end torque with them too. Some of that can be reclaimed with Lloydz variable timing wheel (gear).

As for the labor, the motor does NOT need to come out. The shop that quoted you $2500 is clearly not aware of this fact. They also aren't aware that the 438's won't fit either.

As for the PC-V, for the price of the dyno tune you'll be paying for, just buy the piggyback auto tune module, and never have to pay for a dyno at all.

As an aside, I have the Lloydz VM1-DR cams, variable intake (Vision only), Ness twin sucker intake, Lloydz timing wheel advanced 2 degrees, and a PC-V with Autotune. My bike does not "pop".. EVER.... It took both the variable intake and the timing wheel for me to regain the low end torque I lost with the cams.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd try the new Cobra Power Pro CVT, and keep the setup you have, since low end torque is important to you. I would also make sure that you do indeed have the stage 1 flash loaded on your ECU.
Well this may change things. The whole point of adding cams was to improve low end torque which I understood the Lloyds cams did. Your opinion/experience is the opposite so I am on the fence again. I seem to spend a fair amount of time between 2500 and 3500 and I find the XR a bit lacking compared to the Thunderbird 1700 I had before the Vic

Arizona Victory claim to do a lot of cam jobs and are quite well regarded by some members here. The claim the Andrews are the best and to "do the job properly" you need to remove the engine hence the $2500 charge.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
632 Posts
Well this may change things. The whole point of adding cams was to improve low end torque which I understood the Lloyds cams did. Your opinion/experience is the opposite so I am on the fence again. I seem to spend a fair amount of time between 2500 and 3500 and I find the XR a bit lacking compared to the Thunderbird 1700 I had before the Vic

Arizona Victory claim to do a lot of cam jobs and are quite well regarded by some members here. The claim the Andrews are the best and to "do the job properly" you need to remove the engine hence the $2500 charge.
Both KevinX and Rylan Vos can do cams in less than 2 hours, without pulling the motor. Others have done their own using the same process. The cams will definitely NOT add low end torque. They will enhance torque and horsepower above 3500rpm though, and where the stock cams fall off dead at 4500 rpm, the VM1-DR cams keep getting stronger, hence the need to increase your rev limiter, as it shuts off at 5500rpm in 5th and less in 6th.

I have done roll on comparisons with two friends that both have Visions with nothing more than Ness Big Honkers, twin sucker intake, and a fuel controller, and they both could outrun me until 3500rpm, at which point, the gap starts narrowing and I start regaining ground. keep in mind, that's a 5th and 6th gear roll on. If I start with my RPM's at 3500, I take them. So, it's what you want... horsepower, or cruising / roll on torque. That was before I added the variable intake stack and timing wheel. Now roll ons are pretty close. With the X bike, you don't have the option of the intake stack.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
403 Posts
It seems all the advice you have so far is bad advice. I have an idea... Call Lloyd and get some good advice.
Agreed.

You won't get a hold of Lloyd this week, he's hanging out with me all week. You know, I pretty much always answer the phone, or call back very soon and am glad to help sort out performance questions, even if I'm not doing the work. I am the #2 Lloydz dealer in the world and averaged over one cam/fuel controller install a week this year, so I've seen a done quite a few Vics. One five minute call can answer a week-long internet thread.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,707 Posts
I've been hearing some good things about the timing advance wheel. I may just give one a try since I also use the PCV and the Lloydz site says it will compliment the PCV since it will adjust timing under 2500 and PCV won't.

I did the cams myself. KevinX gave some tips and tricks which enabled me to tackle the job with basic hand tools. If you consider yourself to be a competent shade tree mechanic; you can do the job. You don't need to pull the engine. The backbone will bend enough with leverage to lift out the rear cam and carrier so you can install a new one.

Definitely give Rylan a call to get the straight scoop from someone who does this for a living.

A guy by the name of Phil64 did a good write up on how to do the cam swap. Check it out: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B95Bg763O92RN2QtUEpoLVBSSi1SYW1XVXFpeU9fUQ/edit?pli=1
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,901 Posts
I have done roll on comparisons with two friends that both have Visions with nothing more than Ness Big Honkers, twin sucker intake, and a fuel controller, and they both could outrun me until 3500rpm, at which point, the gap starts narrowing and I start regaining ground. keep in mind, that's a 5th and 6th gear roll on. If I start with my RPM's at 3500, I take them. So, it's what you want... horsepower, or cruising / roll on torque. That was before I added the variable intake stack and timing wheel. Now roll ons are pretty close.
So, if we think about what you said, the torque loss seems to be a function of the airbox... not the cams. Would you agree?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
632 Posts
So, if we think about what you said, the torque loss seems to be a function of the airbox... not the cams. Would you agree?
No, it was the cams. The other two bikes had the top filter. When my cams went in, I already had the top filter and PCV/Autotune. The ONLY change was the cams at that time, and I definitely felt the loss in low end, along with the kick in the pants as the revs came up !!! The variable intake adapter restored almost all of it... definitely a noticeable improvement! The timing gear, was the icing on the cake... made it just a hair snappier....

Ah, I see the source of your question.... the twin sucker intake (or Lloydz top filter) is NOT the same thing as the variable intake adapter.... the latter is a velocity stack contraption that bolts between the throttle body and the intake plate (not the intake cover).
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,707 Posts
I bet that is what Lloyd has planned for the X bikes. The Adjustable Intake System that would be mounted under the air filter he now sells. It would make sense since he already knows it works so well on the Vision's. It is a matter of making one fit the design of the X bike's backbone.

Looking forward to that. In the meantime I did order the timing advance unit.

Is +2 the magic number for the Vic 106 w/Lloydz cams?

Does it help in changing from, say, 91 or 93 octane down to 87 without losing power?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
632 Posts
I bet that is what Lloyd has planned for the X bikes. The Adjustable Intake System that would be mounted under the air filter he now sells. It would make sense since he already knows it works so well on the Vision's. It is a matter of making one fit the design of the X bike's backbone.

Looking forward to that. In the meantime I did order the timing advance unit.

Is +2 the magic number for the Vic 106 w/Lloydz cams?

Does it help in changing from, say, 91 or 93 octane down to 87 without losing power?
On most 106 bikes, Kevin and Rylan are reporting good results at +4. I tried +4, but it just didn't feel quite right to me.... probably works ok in the cooler weather we are experiencing now, but I'm afraid it would ping like crazy in the summer, given that I could "make" my bike ping (using the stock timing gear) in our 95+ degree, ultra humid summer days. So, I backed down to +2. I can feel the difference over stock timing, and I should be able to mitigate ping in the summer without having to back it down. Keep in mind, that each bike is a little different. Rylan already posted that he had one bike that worked better with retarded timing, but most like advance. Anything with Lloydz ECU, and you don't want to go more than +2, since the ECU is already advancing spark.

Since I have the PC-V, I could go +4, then back timing off in varying increments above 2500rpm using the PC-V.... but, I'm waiting for the heat of summer to experiment with that.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
632 Posts
Were you able to switch to a lower octane gas without losing power?

Others, not using the Lloydz cams, have reported good results in cooler weather with the lower octane fuel.
I always run 91 octane, ethanol free most of the time. But, my '11 has: Ness twin sucker top filter, Victory performance front filter, Lloydz VM1-DR cams, Lloydz Adjustable Intake (stack), Lloydz timing gear, Ness Honkers, Stage 1 flash, and the PC-V with Autotune. I will also add that I put the PC-V and AT units on the bike right after I bought it. I do not recall EVER having had the upshift/downshift pops that others get. My buddy, with his '09 Vision, Ness Twin Sucker top filter, Ness Honkers, and Ness Bigshot fuel controller gets upshift and downshift pops all the time. But it has one of the best torque curves I've ever seen on what amounts to no more than a stage 1 intake/exhaust setup. I'm not sure what it is, but those '09's run really well!
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top