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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I been looking at BMW bikes for a while. Watching YouTube vids ect. Doing some home work.

I have worked for 2 German companies in the past and I always thought they were very good at over engineering to the point of ultra complication.
Witch in turn produced a product very difficult to service.
Or.......
Had me shaking my head and asking if more thought could have been wasted making this simple item more complicated to diagnose and expensive to repair.

The term keep it simple stupid needs to be intragrated into some engineering minds!!!!

Take a look at this vid.
Pay Attenion to the milage statement .........

Tell me what you think.

http://youtu.be/6gzR4WHD-94

You don't know how good you got it till you see this.... WTF....

Rob
 

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I have a long time friend who is a certified BMW wrench. The tales he tells about just doing the routine service had me running the other way. The electrics are exceedingly complicated and require expensive diagnostics to analyze. Replacing a dry clutch, well that video sez it. Another friend with a R1150R with only 8K miles, has no ABS (no, it won't reset) and no fuel gauge, which is very common. He now hates the bike so much he bought a Vic XR LE and is lovin' it. I know a lot Beemer owners have no problems and stay with the brand, but Gawd help those who don't have good luck and don't have deep pockets.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I was totally amazed.
I thought BMW was a quality bike.
Can you believe being told you have to have your bike stripped to the bone to lube a spline shaft on the clutch? Every 40k....
If that same setup works on a manual car it should work on the bike.

So all I can say is that makes even a Harley look better thought out.

This really makes Victory look good.....

Rob
 

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I was totally amazed.
I thought BMW was a quality bike.
I still think it is a quality bike, just not one designed with ease of maintenance in mind.

I don't know about the splines on the newer ones, but as I understand it, they went to a multiplate wet clutch which should last a lot longer and is supposedly easier to replace.

Can you believe being told you have to have your bike stripped to the bone to lube a spline shaft on the clutch? Every 40k...
Well, ours are surely simpler, they also require a good bit of disassembly now and again. By the book we should be replacing the drive belt and sprockets every 30k.

All I know is that I'd donate a testicle for a wrench that was as knowledgeable and thorough as the guy in the video.

Just about a month ago I took mine in to let the yokels lube the steering head because I didn't want to part with $70 for a stinkin specialized Victory socket nor did I have the time to wait for it before a trip. When I got the bike back they didn't tighten either bolt holding the upper triple tree to the forks and missed tightening on the keeps the left lever from spinning around on the handlebar. And that was AFTER they had to take it apart a second time because the tech thought the bearings in the steering head were sealed and didn't need to be lubed. And that was AFTER I told them SPECIFICALLY that's what I wanted done. Rather than call to tell me I didn't need it done, they just didn't bother to do it.

And now I feel looseness every now and again. I'm pretty sure the guy didn't even torque the damn stem nut to spec. So I'll end up buying their stupid, overpriced socket and tearing it apart again in the near future.

I know one thing. The European bike techs I've dealt with have all been top notch. Not so impressed with the Vic techs.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I still think it is a quality bike, just not one designed with ease of maintenance in mind.

I don't know about the splines on the newer ones, but as I understand it, they went to a multiplate wet clutch which should last a lot longer and is supposedly easier to replace.



Well, ours are surely simpler, they also require a good bit of disassembly now and again. By the book we should be replacing the drive belt and sprockets every 30k.

All I know is that I'd donate a testicle for a wrench that was as knowledgeable and thorough as the guy in the video.

Just about a month ago I took mine in to let the yokels lube the steering head because I didn't want to part with $70 for a stinkin specialized Victory socket nor did I have the time to wait for it before a trip. When I got the bike back they didn't tighten either bolt holding the upper triple tree to the forks and missed tightening on the keeps the left lever from spinning around on the handlebar. And that was AFTER they had to take it apart a second time because the tech thought the bearings in the steering head were sealed and didn't need to be lubed. And that was AFTER I told them SPECIFICALLY that's what I wanted done. Rather than call to tell me I didn't need it done, they just didn't bother to do it.

And now I feel looseness every now and again. I'm pretty sure the guy didn't even torque the damn stem nut to spec. So I'll end up buying their stupid, overpriced socket and tearing it apart again in the near future.

I know one thing. The European bike techs I've dealt with have all been top notch. Not so impressed with the Vic techs.
I guess my experience with the two German companies I worked for has me biased. But one strong impression I did come away with was how they consider them selves superior intellect..... To the point of being ignorant about it.
You can even see it in the factory trained guy in the video.
I have to call it like it is and say if the guy in the video is well trained but if he was real smart he should stand up and say how much of a piss poor design that bike is and warn everyone to dump theres before they get the massive repair bill or get stuck out on the road with what I consider a total failure in bike design brought to you supposedly by the superior race.

They should be ashamed to put there name on that bike......
And to try and convince there customers that that (faulty shaft) need to be lubed every 40k. He said that bike had 57k on it and the shaft failed.
I can tell you that if that bike had been taken apart at 40 that tech would have said the shaft is to worn to be lubed and must be replaced..... Think about it....

I agree with you on Victory techs. The nightmare stories I read on here.
And the killer is Victory is one of the easier bikes to work on.
There is next to nothing on a Victory that should need a super tech.
Belt issues, your steering head bearings are all easy fixes if you have the tools. And for the guys like me that does all my own service I will wait till winter to do anything like steering head bearings.
The only thing on the Vic that surprised me was the Cam Follower Bearings.... (Roller Rockers) can't figure out why they used this unless they saved a crap load of money using a soft metal cam. Personally I would like to see them scrap the rollers and the ticking noise they make. Hydraulic lifters should be silent. But because they use a very soft spring you can't pre-load the hydraulic lifter like Harley does to eliminate the slop that causes the tick. Sort of like having solid lifters with way to much clearance between the rocker arm and the valve stem.
The massive CLUNK going into first gear can be reduced by not spinning the clutch so fast at idle. A smaller pinion gear on the crank like most Japanese bikes use would reduce the clutch speed and reduce the clunk. The loss of input shaft speed would have to be made up in the tranny.
 

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I guess my experience with the two German companies I worked for has me biased. But one strong impression I did come away with was how they consider them selves superior intellect..... To the point of being ignorant about it.
You can even see it in the factory trained guy in the video.
I have to call it like it is and say if the guy in the video is well trained but if he was real smart he should stand up and say how much of a piss poor design that bike is and warn everyone to dump theres before they get the massive repair bill or get stuck out on the road with what I consider a total failure in bike design brought to you supposedly by the superior race.
I don't know about all that. The video was a couple hours. I didn't watch it all, but it seemed like that was all the time it took them to do the job. Say 3 hours. With a dry clutch, probably wouldn't hurt to replace it every 30k miles or so anyway. So you trade off a 3 hour job there for a very simple job of adjusting the valves.

Contrast that to my FJR which is a 4 bolt cinch to remove the drive shaft and moly lube the slines every other tire change, but is a 3 hour job to check the valves.

I agree with you on Victory techs. The nightmare stories I read on here.
And the killer is Victory is one of the easier bikes to work on.
Maybe that's why Vic doesn't feel a need to train them?

There is next to nothing on a Victory that should need a super tech.
Belt issues, your steering head bearings are all easy fixes if you have the tools. And for the guys like me that does all my own service I will wait till winter to do anything like steering head bearings.
I still marvel at you people who are able to change the rear tire by yourselves. On my FJR it's a one man 10 minute job. On the Vic, I'm not sure that I could do it by myself if I had two additional arms that were 8 inches longer.

But leaving the mechanical aptitude part aside, look at the cost. Go price a belt and sprockets for a Vic, then get back to me on the bill of doing a routine BMW drive shaft lube and dry clutch replace. I'll bet you find that the bills are closer than you think.

The massive CLUNK
Is kinda endearing to riders of American machinery, no?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I don't know about all that. The video was a couple hours. I didn't watch it all, but it seemed like that was all the time it took them to do the job. Say 3 hours. With a dry clutch, probably wouldn't hurt to replace it every 30k miles or so anyway. So you trade off a 3 hour job there for a very simple job of adjusting the valves.

Contrast that to my FJR which is a 4 bolt cinch to remove the drive shaft and moly lube the slines every other tire change, but is a 3 hour job to check the valves.



Maybe that's why Vic doesn't feel a need to train them?



I still marvel at you people who are able to change the rear tire by yourselves. On my FJR it's a one man 10 minute job. On the Vic, I'm not sure that I could do it by myself if I had two additional arms that were 8 inches longer.

But leaving the mechanical aptitude part aside, look at the cost. Go price a belt and sprockets for a Vic, then get back to me on the bill of doing a routine BMW drive shaft lube and dry clutch replace. I'll bet you find that the bills are closer than you think.



Is kinda endearing to riders of American machinery, no?
You do make good points.
I have done plenty of shim on bucket valve adjustments. And they are a pain in the ass. But that is the price you pay for having a high performance motor that revs in the double digit RPMs. By removing rocker arms, push rods, hydraulic lifters and having the cam directly operate the valves you get great valve control and reduced valve float at high RPM.

And I agree the price of a belt and pulleys will be in the same ball park as the BMW total strip down at around the same milage......
You have to agree almost anyone on this site could do the pulley job. Unlike that BMW service.

For the record.... I have owned many many shaft drive bikes. I have never had an issue. Lucky maybe. Most are very easy to work on.
But belt drive is spooky to me. That belt sits exposed to all sorts of road debris. One stone while miles away from home and it could be the end of your ride that day. Never ever liked the idea of belt drive.

Clunk.... When anything goes into gear that hard there is damage. It may take some time but it will show up sooner or later. And it's a simple fix to reduce it.

If I did have a BMW that needed that work done at a time when I couldn't do it my self (while traveling) all I can say is I would want the guy in the video doing the job..... But how many clones of that guy is there out there?
 

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I have done two of those..replacements, not lubes...PITA...

Did a wiring harness on the same model bike....even worse.

I'm still not convinced that the 40K lube is necessary? Ya don't pull the transmission on a standard shift car every 40K to lube the shaft...The two clutches I did showed no sign of excess wear,..just needed clutches. and both were @ high mileages near to & over 100K.

All [vehicles] have their highs & lows / pros & cons..etc & so-on.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I have done two of those..replacements, not lubes...PITA...

Did a wiring harness on the same model bike....even worse.

I'm still not convinced that the 40K lube is necessary? Ya don't pull the transmission on a standard shift car every 40K to lube the shaft...The two clutches I did showed no sign of excess wear,..just needed clutches. and both were @ high mileages near to & over 100K.

All [vehicles] have their highs & lows / pros & cons..etc & so-on.
That shaft has to be made of to soft a metal.
As you said you don't take your manual shift car part every 40k and lube the shaft.

Can you imagine your typical Vic tech tearing that bike down ????
 

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That shaft has to be made of to soft a metal.
As you said you don't take your manual shift car part every 40k and lube the shaft.

Can you imagine your typical Vic tech tearing that bike down ????

Well that's just it..the two high mileage bikes that I did the clutches on , didn't display abnormal wear? I think [some] maybe all that do might be due to rider habits ?...hot-rodding ? etc. I think some of it is pure myth. I say that because on the old Airhead models the final drive splines [were] known to be soft, and indeed needed periodic lube. and even eventual replacement or re-machining. I have done a few of those as well....and there were a few 'shops' that could & would re-machine them @ a decent cost savings. IMO some of [this] was derived from [that] ?.......all opinion of course
 

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I know some people with RT1100, RT1150 and RT1200.
They are more frequent here than in USA, I suppose.
A clutch every 40.000 miles is NOT normal.
They last frequently 150.000 KMS (100K miles ) or more.
The Guzzis have the same question.
A 400 USD service each 10.000 KMS seems to be normal.
For me, as I work with the bike, it is a broken tool, but BMW sells performance, as said before.
The quality is good, very good, but the price/quality average is poor.
Should I buy one? Per 20K EUR no way.
But all this is a game: if service and parts were cheap people would not change their donkeys for younger ones !.
If you want reliability, buy Honda. Unfortunately this last years they design bikes for blind drivers.
 

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I know some people with RT1100, RT1150 and RT1200.
They are more frequent here than in USA, I suppose.
A clutch every 40.000 miles is NOT normal.
They last frequently 150.000 KMS (100K miles ) or more.
The Guzzis have the same question.
A 400 USD service each 10.000 KMS seems to be normal.
For me, as I work with the bike, it is a broken tool, but BMW sells performance, as said before.
The quality is good, very good, but the price/quality average is poor.
Should I buy one? Per 20K EUR no way.
But all this is a game: if service and parts were cheap people would not change their donkeys for younger ones !.
If you want reliability, buy Honda. Unfortunately this last years they design bikes for blind drivers.
All I can tell ya is I've rented an RT1200 twice. Once to run around in the Alps and the other to run around California. Both were outstanding bikes. The heated grips and seat came in particularly useful during a cold rainy first day around Innsbruck.

The thing that struck me with the RT is I had to change nothing. They were made for a person with a longer inseam than mine, but aside from that everything worked wonderfully on them straight out of the box.

Contrast that to my FJR. I had to replace a seat, add triple tree with risers, put on some cheesy throttle lock for a cruise control), change the windshield, change the suspension, add a fuel controller to take out some of the throttle lurch.

I will say that our big twin cruisers handle cross winds WAY better. In Cali, my friend in his wife were on a rented Harley and riding around Big Sur, the wind liked to throw the wife and I into the ocean. My friends on the Harley barely noticed we were riding through a tornado simulator.

Anyway, here's a little taste of RT1200 goodness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzz9x6DLAEc
 

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upkeep $$$$

the cost of keeping $$$$ bikes like BMW + many italian hot rods are for those that love those bikes + have deep pockets. i think the Mini cars are neat, another BMW product but reading on the forums problems are many + costly. prices for Mini's other than a basic no options lame FWD can get pretty $$$$$$. i rarely have any work done by others on my car-truck or bikes! when i do its a quality independent for sure
 

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Not sure if someone else answered these cause I am working through the thread.

The only thing on the Vic that surprised me was the Cam Follower Bearings.... (Roller Rockers) can't figure out why they used this unless they saved a crap load of money using a soft metal cam. Personally I would like to see them scrap the rollers and the ticking noise they make. Hydraulic lifters should be silent. But because they use a very soft spring you can't pre-load the hydraulic lifter like Harley does to eliminate the slop that causes the tick. Sort of like having solid lifters with way to much clearance between the rocker arm and the valve stem. .
Roller cam followers allow the use of cam ramp angles for accelerating the valve train that can't be used without them.
Allows you to open the valve faster but still put in a proper ramp to accelerate and decel the valve properly in the available space.

The massive CLUNK going into first gear can be reduced by not spinning the clutch so fast at idle. A smaller pinion gear on the crank like most Japanese bikes use would reduce the clutch speed and reduce the clunk. The loss of input shaft speed would have to be made up in the tranny.
Victory has a very light crank in comparison to displacement.
A hd crank will weigh close to double the weight of a Vic.
This is the source of the quick acceleration of a vic compared to a HD because a bike must first accelerate the crank before it can accelerate the bike.
However without the inertia of the heavy crank and the huge displacement of the motor the bike would be scary to ride by the novice rider and severely limit who it could be sold to.
For instance if you were on the cam WOT and your ignition failed the bike would suddenly compression brake faster than you could react unless you were fully prepared mentally for something like this to happen. It would at least bounce you off the windshield and possibly slide the rear tire. There is a good chance a novice rider would probably go down between being bounced off the windscreen and the tire going into a slide.
Same when you were leaned over in a corner and down shifted, if you did not rpm match the down shift when you let out the clutch the wheel would skid and down you would go before you had time to react.

The answer to these issues was to add inertia in the primary through the gear ration and those big thick primary gears. This solves the problem and as a bonus the inertia is added in later where it is more necessary without being as detrimental to the performance of the bike. However the trans clunks when you put it in gear for the same reason.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Not sure if someone else answered these cause I am working through the thread.



Roller cam followers allow the use of cam ramp angles for accelerating the valve train that can't be used without them.
Allows you to open the valve faster but still put in a proper ramp to accelerate and decel the valve properly in the available space.



Victory has a very light crank in comparison to displacement.
A hd crank will weigh close to double the weight of a Vic.
This is the source of the quick acceleration of a vic compared to a HD because a bike must first accelerate the crank before it can accelerate the bike.
However without the inertia of the heavy crank and the huge displacement of the motor the bike would be scary to ride by the novice rider and severely limit who it could be sold to.
For instance if you were on the cam WOT and your ignition failed the bike would suddenly compression brake faster than you could react unless you were fully prepared mentally for something like this to happen. It would at least bounce you off the windshield and possibly slide the rear tire. There is a good chance a novice rider would probably go down between being bounced off the windscreen and the tire going into a slide.
Same when you were leaned over in a corner and down shifted, if you did not rpm match the down shift when you let out the clutch the wheel would skid and down you would go before you had time to react.

The answer to these issues was to add inertia in the primary through the gear ration and those big thick primary gears. This solves the problem and as a bonus the inertia is added in later where it is more necessary without being as detrimental to the performance of the bike. However the trans clunks when you put it in gear for the same reason.
According to the two companies selling cams for theses bikes the cam lobes are not very aggressive. So I think they could dump the rollers or at least add a stiffer valve spring and reduce the valve lash to zero....

These bikes don't come or even need a slipper clutch like others do so it seems reducing the clutch speed would not have much of an effect on compression braking. And if that did become an issue they could add a slipper clutch to compensate for compression braking.
Remember the clunk comes from the clutch turning as a unit. Then when the bike is put in first gear the steel plates stop dead and the fiber plates keep turning. The sudden stop of the steel plates and the resounding gear slop is what makes the clunk. Gear dogs one side not turning and the other side spinning very fast du to the speed the clutch spins at.... Bang....
Besides a light crank will spin up faster than a heavy crank when down shifting causing less compression braking.

This motor stock doesn't make very much power. So high lift cams or cams with fast ramp rates and light weight cranks just doesn't add up..
Where is the power????
Where is the torque that this type of part should produce??
 

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Discussion Starter #18
the cost of keeping $$$$ bikes like BMW + many italian hot rods are for those that love those bikes + have deep pockets. i think the Mini cars are neat, another BMW product but reading on the forums problems are many + costly. prices for Mini's other than a basic no options lame FWD can get pretty $$$$$$. i rarely have any work done by others on my car-truck or bikes! when i do its a quality independent for sure
A friend has a mini and costly to own for sure. Also very hard on fuel.
I guess I just expected more from BMW...
 

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I am not trying to argue with you just giving you my best guesses and some knowledge I have accumulated along the way.

According to the two companies selling cams for theses bikes the cam lobes are not very aggressive. So I think they could dump the rollers or at least add a stiffer valve spring and reduce the valve lash to zero....??

To increase the valve spring would most likely require an increase in the diameter of the hydraulic cam follower piston. This adds weight of the larger housing, piston, and oil under it, that must be controlled and therefore requires additional spring to control it.

If you do away with the hydraulic adjuster then you have to find a way to adjust the valve lash. At the moment the recommended way to remove the back valve cover is to first remove the engine which may not be necessary but getting in there to adjust 3 non-hydraulic adjusters is going to be a bitch. Paying someone to do it will be an added expense required at regular intervals making the bike less appealing to the people who buy it now.

Also what is non aggressive for a roller tappet can be extremely aggressive if not impossible for a flat tappet cam follower.

Yes the cams are obviously not aggressive but the design is good for an aggressive cam should you want one. Andrews Products will grind anything one wants. If you supply the blank, the profile and the $$$$. http://www.andrewsproducts.com/
There are some interesting tricks that can be done with a 3 lobe cam and a 4 valve head like the vic's . I doubt these tricks are being used in the cams being ground now as there is so much left undone at present with these cams because of American riding styles.

I'm not implying that a non roller cam could not be made to work with the cams used, I was just pointing out the advantages of a roller tappet over other available cam followers.


Using heavier than necessary valve springs only eat hp through losses. It takes hp to compress a heavier spring. You do get an increase in power back from the spring but losses make it a one sided effort. Bigger springs mean more power loss from the valve train.
This is OK if you are making bigger power to compensate but in a low Rpm torque motor it just makes less power.

With a heavier spring you must use a stronger thicker valve heads which weighs more or a much gentler accel/decell ramp which eats into available cam timing. Heavier thicker valves require even more spring to control.

Heavier springs generally mean a reduction in guide length which means less guide life or an increase in valve length which adds to the height of the motor changing the CG of the bike.
They also dramatically decrease rocker shaft life, guide and stem life, timing chain life, and increase tensioner size and shorten life expectancy of chain guides, resulting in a motor which makes less hp sooner and requires more maintenance more often.



So keeping everything light and still under control means more reliability longer as well as a more efficient motor. Also no valve adjustments means fewer burnt valves and a motor that is perceived to be more trouble free etc.
I don't really know the specifics of the vic design you probably could trade some things for others etc. But generally what I said holds true.


The sudden stop of the steel plates and the resounding gear slop is what makes the clunk. Gear dogs one side not turning and the other side spinning very fast du to the speed the clutch spins at.... Bang.......
There is also sticktion ( may not be a real word) of the oil in the clutch.
Oil being non compressible forces some drive and driven plates together with quite a bit of force as the clutch pack rotates through the oil with the clutch lever in. It's not until you stop one set of plates that the same oil forces all plates apart. At that moment when they are still stuck together and you drop it into gear stopping the driven plates the inertial of the entire drive train matters. (Clunk)
Besides a light crank will spin up faster than a heavy crank when down shifting causing less compression braking...
Less inertial means maximum compression braking immediately. Much less inertia to counteract it.
It also means much quicker acceleration. So you are accelerating much quicker or decelerating much quicker which can lead to a loss of control until you adjust your riding style to it.

This motor stock doesn't make very much power. So high lift cams or cams with fast ramp rates and light weight cranks just doesn't add up..
Where is the power????
Where is the torque that this type of part should produce??
Actually the motor is capable with some modification of making a lot of power but the market that it is being sold too would not want to by a bike with such a motor. Not here in America.

I mentioned in my last post some of the tricks a large displacement low inertia cranked long stroked high hp motor regularly do . One thing I forgot to mention is their ability to rotate the bike around the rear wheel very quickly. They are not enjoyable cruising bikes. It's a very limited market who would be interested in a bike like that. People want bikes that they can be comfortable on not bikes that scare them.


Polaris bought this engine design in an effort to build a better Harley in hopes of taking Harleys market over.
The original design was that of a high performance motor.
They assumed that if they marketed a superior bike that had the same feel, better reliability, vastly superior handling, light years better braking and more power than a Harley, people would leave the Harley brand behind and buy their bike, bringing them a great return on their investment.

Who could have guessed that Americans would not leave a inferior design for a superior design because of brand loyalty.
They and everyone else completely missed the power of association/branding. I had a few long term HD riders like myself over this weekend and we were discussing this. For Americans we think of everything American when you say Harley. Chevy, Harley, the American Flag, apple pie. Bronson riding off into the sunset with the girl on his sportster....

When we say Polaris we think of snowmobiles...... How cool is a snowmobile.... not near as cool as visions of Peter Fonda and Billy in the movie Easyrider riding off into the sunset with a gas take full of drug money.
Sucks for you, you just want a good reliable fast bike.... Sorry.


Americans are infatuated with a motor that makes a lot of torque and runs down the highway in 6th gear at an idle at 70mph.
The only way to get that is with a long stroke, big displacement, small valves, a cam with little overlap and a low gear ratio in 6th.
Everything that makes that possible prevents a motor from making a lot of hp at higher RPM where a motor needs much bigger valves and ports and much more overlap to breathe.
That is why you have no HP. Big valves and ports give you top end torque at the cost of low end torque. With big valves how are you going to make enough torque to idle down the highway in 6th?
With big valves and ports and aggressive cams you won't be able to get into 6th till 85. Many people are afraid to drive much over 85.
So far we have not been able to figure out how to have it both ways.
It's all market driven. cheers
 
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