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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Since I had the air fuel ratio digital meter hooked up to the bike I pulled off the air filter rubber strip
everyone talks about. There was no significant change in digital readings without the rubber strip in place. This digital meter is very sensitive and measures in gradients of 10ths. If I were to get more air into the filter at speed or at idle it should change my fuel to air ratio readings, and this simply was not the case. Thus I have to conclude pulling the rubber strip is a placebo effect.
 

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Are your O2 sensors plugged in?
 

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That strip is to keep water/debris out of the air intake area. Years ago my air filter got swamped in a torrential down pour when I was running without the strip. So after that I put it back and even modified the bracket to keep the strip using the Lloydz AF.
I never felt having or not having the strip made any performance difference, but its good to hear a little more more than my seat-of-the-pants evidence.
 

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The dyno, however, tells a very different story. Remove the gasket and get an additional 7-10 hp. Like any intake mod; it has to be matched up with an exhaust mod to allow more air to flow out as well as in. Doing just one won't do much; has to be both.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
The dyno, however, tells a very different story. Remove the gasket and get an additional 7-10 hp. Like any intake mod; it has to be matched up with an exhaust mod to allow more air to flow out as well as in. Doing just one won't do much; has to be both.
Read all my upgrades in the signature. I rode bike with and without rubber strip installed on same day. The evidence is in the real time, load based meter reading. End of story.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Are your O2 sensors plugged in?
O2 sensors disconnected. AF meter sensor installed in place of OX sensor for readings. Have been disconnected years ago permanently..
 

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Read all my upgrades in the signature. I rode bike with and without rubber strip installed on same day. The evidence is in the meter reading. End of story.
Not the end of anything. One lay person's experience does not close the book on this at all. If anything it barely opens the book for study.

The pros who do the dyno tuning (not going to name names but we all know who they are) say removing that gasket coupled with a freer flowing exhaust definitely adds hp and tq.

You are entitled to your opinions but not your own version of the facts when they clearly say the opposite of what you're saying.

Now if you want to say leaving that gasket in place is best for those who ride in the rain because water can somehow get to the filter without it; I'd be more inclined to agree with you even though I can't see how enough water can get to the filter with a fairing in front of where the water would have to go through. On a XR, yes (with no windshield), but not an XC with a fairing. Having said that; people have their bikes set up differently to control the wind and buffeting. It's possible some peeps have it set up in such a way the rain/air flow could literally be directed to go right to that filter which would be great when it isn't pouring rain but not so great when it is.

I've ridden hundreds of miles in downpours on Harley's with the air filter sticking right out in the open for the water to easily work its way into the intake but miraculously nothing happened. The water vaporized and passed right through the intake, mixed with the gas, and got expelled as vapor along with the regular exhaust gases.

However; those miles were generally on carbed bikes. Not fuel injected. It's highly possible for much less amounts of moisture to affect how a sensitive fuel injected bike like our Vic's might run. I personally have not had that experience and have no reason to doubt the word of those who have with all things being equal.
 

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I wonder if that tank lift from Billet Ace would make a difference.
 

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I wonder if that tank lift from Billet Ace would make a difference.
I have wondered that too. Anyone have some solid proof it does or is just another placebo?
 

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I think the tank lift for the X-bikes is more for looks than anything else. I believe KevinX was going to do a before and after dyno test to really find out but don't know if he ever got around to it. I know he was sent the two lift adapters. Mine are still sitting on my work bench for the next time I have my tank off.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Not the end of anything. One lay person's experience does not close the book on this at all. If anything it barely opens the book for study.

The pros who do the dyno tuning (not going to name names but we all know who they are) say removing that gasket coupled with a freer flowing exhaust definitely adds hp and tq.

You are entitled to your opinions but not your own version of the facts when they clearly say the opposite of what you're saying.

* * * * * * * * * *
FYI - I am just posting what I thought would be of interest. I don't have a dog in the fight about how it turned out, truly. My previous ownership of 14 Harleys and 44 years of continual riding and wrenching on my own bike I've never lost power in the rain either. I've spoken to the experts we all know when I posted my 2014 post on how to tune. I am not going to keep repeating the same information or argue with the fake news crew. I have data for myself in real time. I have posted earlier how to tune you engine back in 2014 for reference. I am using the Innovate MTX-L digital meter. It is plugged into the Ox sensor location powered by 12V. I idle at 12 AF and at speed I cruise in the high 13's to mid 14's on two lane 30-50 mph two lane road and freeway 60-75 speed. When throttle snapped WFO I drop down into 12.5. Damn near perfect fueling. Stoich as it is called is 14.7 I am not giving how to fueling lessons here for those reading. *(Actually I did back in 2014 when I initially posted how to tune your bike). Read up on it to all interested at Dobeck site or Google it. Dyno tuning does little more than what I am doing but it is stationary in one room and can sometimes adjust timing. I dare say using my EJK tuner coupled with the AF Digital meter at speed is in real time, while it takes more time to do (unlike loading onto a Dyno to measure in a room for a business it is a true load reading in real time. Engines work on gas and air. period. I don't have a tank lift. See my signature for upgrades installed. For those who want to argue was it day or night or what color pants I had on or other such nonsense save your energy. Use the info or not. I don't care. See pic of bike at idle. I saw the same numbers on the same day riding with and without strip. End of story.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Quote:
Originally Posted by visionjohnny View Post
I wonder if that tank lift from Billet Ace would make a difference.
I have wondered that too. Anyone have some solid proof it does or is just another placebo?
Tank lift, strip in or out, stock filter, Lloyds filter, etc - The only way to tell is to measure the CFM intake. Again, something empirical, not out of want to believe it does.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by visionjohnny View Post
I wonder if that tank lift from Billet Ace would make a difference.


Tank lift, strip in or out, stock filter, Lloyds filter, etc - The only way to tell is to measure the CFM intake. Again, something empirical, not out of want to believe it does.
Since the belief is that removing the strip or the other changes result in an increase in HP via an increase in air flow, wouldn't a dyno run before and after the removal of the strip (and/or the other changes) also be a good empirical measurement of the benefit (or lack thereof) of making this change? Of course, if the alleged benefit from strip removal requires fast speeds to help force the air into the intake area, then perhaps a normal dyno run is not ideal. Instead, you would have to do a dyno run with suitable forced air flow into the area of the rubber strip. Still possible but not a simple standard dyno run where any air flow is from fans and is blowing on the engine to cool it.

G'day,

Vinish
 

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The only way to know for sure is exactly what you said Vinish. One must put it on the dyno, make a few runs to get a good average on hp/tq, remove the gasket, then do a few more runs to get another average and compare the two averages. Taking a reading at the intake only measures one tiny spot at the point where that sensor is. Maybe a 1/4" area. Worthless data. A spot one inch from the sensor spot might be getting a lot more air or the same. No way to know other than to measure the power output only a dyno can get.

Don't be fooled by this fancy word "empirical". Glo-bull warming frauds have been using pseudo-science for years with fraudulent empirical data. Garbage In Garbage Out. (GIGO)

I would go as far as to say, short of using a dyno or some kind of onboard recording device like the new tuner does, using a sensor in the right place (exhaust) would help in tuning the bike for someone who knew what they were doing. Taking a reading at intake isn't going to help much. One needs to know what the AF mixture is and if it's burning clean enough so as little fuel is wasted as possible without running too lean.

The intake is only one part of the entire equation. The mixture, good ignition of that mixture, and proper flow with right amount of back pressure in the exhaust is all needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I would go as far as to say, short of using a dyno or some kind of onboard recording device like the new tuner does, using a sensor in the right place (exhaust) would help in tuning the bike for someone who knew what they were doing. Taking a reading at intake isn't going to help much. One needs to know what the AF mixture is and if it's burning clean enough so as little fuel is wasted as possible without running too lean.

The intake is only one part of the entire equation. The mixture, good ignition of that mixture, and proper flow with right amount of back pressure in the exhaust is all needed.
** Yup, You just made my argument. Air fuel metering. That is what I am doing. Simple.
 

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** Yup, You just made my argument. Air fuel metering. That is what I am doing. Simple.
Not quite. You said you were taking measurements from the intake. That's only one leg of the tripod. You also need to measure exhaust AF content and power output.

The global warming kooks do the same thing. They only use the pieces and parts they want to in order to get a predetermined outcome. That isn't science at all. Then they say it's settled science when any scientist worth their salt knows science is never settled. If the science was settled when they said the earth was flat; we would still be led to believe in the flat earth fraud.
 

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BBob, I rarely disagree with you and this time I'm not really disagreeing with you be I SEE SempVee point. Hear me out.

Our engines have throttle bodies that can flow only a maximum amount of air/fuel. If the maximum amount of CFM's through the throttle bodies is lower than the volume of the air box then the air box/filter is not the limiting factor. Most air intake boxes flow more air than the throttle bodies can let in. It's very rare that the intake is at fault. Most K&N's I've put on Kawasaki Mach III's and IV's and KZ 1000's only made the bike sound tougher and louder. Yes I took the time to set them up with proper jetting but the intake side after the filter can only flow so much. A 28mm Mikuni carb and only flow what a 28mm carb can flow period. Sometimes IF the intake is a limiting factor then during wide open operation you might pick up a marginal gain but only if the exhaust is now not the limited factor. Most of us are not always riding wide open.

I played this game for years and just gave up that I was not getting enough benefits to keep going down that road of opening up the intake.

Now that being said. changing out cams or trimming intake skirts on two-strokes allows a longer "time" that the flow of the intake happens and does allow more air/fuel into the engine. Even then a fairly stock airbox will not be a significant limiting factor to performance.

both you guys have a point and it's not a "one fits all" solution.
 

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That's pretty much what H_C was saying on the other forum and I can see the truth in that.

In fact when they do a dyno run they run it flat out WOT (wide open throttle) so that's when you would see the benefit of removing that gasket because at half open or less that increased capacity for air flow isn't going to show up.

The fact is when we measure hp/tq we do it under WOT. When we jump on the freeway or merge with high speed traffic; we are probably going to use WOT or near it.

Normal around town riding; not so much unless we are hot dogging it looking to get a ticket.

The OP stated there is no increase in air flow or power though and that's what I disagree with. Heck; I don't really feel the benefit of the cams unless I'm going for it or pulling a hill. I feel the benefit of the timing wheel at lower rpms and a "feeling" of more tq at those lower rpms. Is there more tq? I dunno. Maybe; or maybe it's because it runs smoother with the timing wheel at lower rpms it just gives me the 'feeling' of more tq.

I'm not calling the OP a liar but I do think he's mistaken or not looking at the full picture.

I personally want every bit of available power on tap at all times so I wouldn't think of putting that gasket back in. In fact I'm looking forward to increasing that gap with the tank lift which may or may not make any difference. I never did hear if it did or not. If I don't like I can always put it back down. We are only talking about an inch higher on just the front of the tank. Most people wouldn't even notice. Then again I rarely ride in the rain and live in a dry climate so that option is open to me. For someone in the UK where rain is pretty much the norm; I'd leave the gasket in place.

One other point about the TB size and ability to handle a certain amount of air flow. The size will restrict air flow going at a certain velocity but air can travel faster under pressure or vacuum which is what happens in the TB; vacuum. It will accept a lot more air than it asks for unless we start really bumping up cubic inches or inject some nitrous; neither of which I do or have planned. Another way is to pump air in there. Isn't that kinda what a supercharger does?

High performance isn't my thing so I haven't really pursued the knowledge like some people such as H_C and Lloyd. If I ever do; I will consult with someone like them first.
 

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The only way air goes into a naturally aspirated engine IS by vacuum. Vacuum is not a mystical phenomenon. The Piston dropping down is what causes it. As the intake valve is opened it pulls the mixture in. This is normal. What I think you're saying is that opening up the air box causes more vacuum?

You are right in the superchargers (mechanical blower) and turbochargers (exhaust driven blower) use pressure and not vacuum to increase flow. Nitrous is just another way to "chemically" charge the engine as well.

I spent 12 years in the defunct IDBA drag racing everything up to blown alcohol motorcycles.

Not challenging you Bob. Have you ever figured out why most builders tell you NOT to take out the cats in the exhaust? If air flow is what you're after why do they advise NOT to do it? As I said before airflow is not a one size fits all. Thanks all.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Not quite. You said you were taking measurements from the intake. That's only one leg of the tripod. You also need to measure exhaust AF content and power output.

The global warming kooks do the same thing. They only use the pieces and parts they want to in order to get a predetermined outcome. That isn't science at all. Then they say it's settled science when any scientist worth their salt knows science is never settled. If the science was settled when they said the earth was flat; we would still be led to believe in the flat earth fraud.
Lets stay on point here and not deal with other arguments. You are no more a voice of authority than I am, just another garage guy who wrenches. I am taking the AF reading from where it is ALWAYS done and that is from the sensor in the header. Don't mix apple and oranges here. The AF has not changed when I rode the bike with or without. You are introducing more dynamics than needed. An idling engine requires a richer AF just to stand still at idle as no air is passing. Idle by definition is attempting to run the engine very slowly and at low power to use as little fuel as possible to keep it turning.
When an engine is running really slowly, the air gets sucked into the cylinders very slowly, which sometimes doesn't allow it to mix with fuel thoroughly. The combustion is poor and the engine may stumble. Generally engines try to idle at stoichiometric, but they will inject extra fuel to help it run better if needed. The reason for injecting more fuel comes down to chemistry; the limiting reagent is the oxygen in the air.
**So for most people riding most of the time they would not enjoy the effect of the rubber missing since how many of us ride at close to full throttle? Not many and not for anything other than possibly a passing situation or long extreme uphill pull?
AND when I do go WFO the AF did drop to the same 12.5 richness - As the ECM having preprogrammed mapping to deal with it. So at best - for most it is a placebo created by noise and wanting it so.
Im not an engineer and never played one on TV. I remain - Contrary Empirical Evidence.
 
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