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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Guys,

I am seeking some understanding of how the AT work and if it does why is it no recommended by some. Here are a few questions:

1. Now that the bike was dynoed, would the autotune improve on what was done on the dyno?

2. Would it give me better fuel economy with normal everyday riding and more power when riding aggressively?

3. Does the autotune require me to make the initial entries in the table or does it get that from each cell of the PCV to form its base? If I supply the numbers, where do I get them from?

4. After a few hundred miles of using the AT, should I save those now modified cells to the PCV and disable the autotune or just let it run?

5. If the autotune further improves the map/performance of the bike from when it was dynoed, why would some say no to the autotune?

6. Is the purpose of the autotune to make the bike run as close to perfect as possible in any condition because it is constantly tuning?

Although Kyle (Kyle) did my dyno and the bike runs great, His recommendation was to sell since my bike is now dynoed. But if it makes his tune even better, why not use it? I think I would like for it to be as close to perfect as possible if possible.

I understand it is my decision. I am a network engineer. I value the opinion of the educated, experienced and techees.

Thanks,
 

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Hi Guys,

I am seeking some understanding of how the AT work and if it does why is it no recommended by some. Here are a few questions:

1. Now that the bike was dynoed, would the autotune improve on what was done on the dyno?
Yes

2. Would it give me better fuel economy with normal everyday riding and more power when riding aggressively?
Yes

3. Does the autotune require me to make the initial entries in the table or does it get that from each cell of the PCV to form its base? If I supply the numbers, where do I get them from?
It's quicker if you start from a base map that is close, but starting from a "zero" map works very well also. The end result will be the same after a few imports from the trim tables that it creates
4. After a few hundred miles of using the AT, should I save those now modified cells to the PCV and disable the autotune or just let it run?
Initially, you will be importing (accepting) the trims into the main PCV tables. After that, some people choose to disconnect once they get close. However, by doing so, you miss out on the dynamic nature of the unit, where it is still adapting to throttle, load, temp, etc. It takes different fuel requirements to maintain a specific AFR if you are accelerating vs. decelerating, for example
5. If the autotune further improves the map/performance of the bike from when it was dynoed, why would some say no to the autotune?
money. then again, no need to dyno tune at all if you had spent that money on the AT to begin with.
6. Is the purpose of the autotune to make the bike run as close to perfect as possible in any condition because it is constantly tuning?
The purpose of the AT is to have the bike perform at whatever AFR values you set as targets in your AT unit. I find that 13.5 for at and near WOT, and 14 for cruise is about ideal for performance and mileage
Although Kyle (Kyle) did my dyno and the bike runs great, His recommendation was to sell since my bike is now dynoed. But if it makes his tune even better, why not use it? I think I would like for it to be as close to perfect as possible if possible.

I understand it is my decision. I am a network engineer. I value the opinion of the educated, experienced and techees.

Thanks,
 

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Hi Guys,

I am seeking some understanding of how the AT work and if it does why is it no recommended by some. Here are a few questions:

1. Now that the bike was dynoed, would the autotune improve on what was done on the dyno?
Not necessarily. When you call for a specific A/F ratio number, it may not be what was "programmed" before. If the bike ran good before, the dynamic will change as with the AT "On" it will change the programmers values to match what is on the A/F chart.

2. Would it give me better fuel economy with normal everyday riding and more power when riding aggressively?
Again, not necessarily. It all depends on the values on the A/F table.

3. Does the autotune require me to make the initial entries in the table or does it get that from each cell of the PCV to form its base? If I supply the numbers, where do I get them from?
You should always start with a base map, preferably one close to your setup. You will find these on Power Commander's website or borrow from a buddy.

4. After a few hundred miles of using the AT, should I save those now modified cells to the PCV and disable the autotune or just let it run?
It doesn't even take that long. You can accept trims with less than 100 miles on the last "accept." After about 300-500 miles of accepting trims, you should have your A/F table dialed in. There are mixed opinions on if you should "Turn Off" the AT at that point.

5. If the autotune further improves the map/performance of the bike from when it was dynoed, why would some say no to the autotune?
Because it does and it doesn't. If you continue to ride in the same area as you formulated your tune, it continues to work just like a closed loop FI system, always making little adjustments attempting to keep it perfect. If you take your bike across country, it will continue to do this but your values will be adjusted, even if only in the allotted range (default is 20). Once you come home, figure about 50 miles if you didn't accept any trims to return to where you left.

Also, some say "No" to the AT because they are done with their mods and don't want another system on the bike that could potentially fail and leave them unable to ride. Plus, sooner or later the O2 (Lambda sensors actually) retail at $100-$150 to replace when they fail. If you don't catch it, it can also create havoc on your trim values.

6. Is the purpose of the autotune to make the bike run as close to perfect as possible in any condition because it is constantly tuning?
Yes

These are my opinions based on my research. I admit they could be incorrect based on the way I understood the information at the time. I welcome any corrections to my post.

Ride safe.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
So let's say AT is installed on a bike with some mods. The PCV has a base map but there is popping. The AT is enables and base map is accepted. Over the course of 100 miles the trims are accepted. Does the popping go away?
 

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Thank you for this thread. I too have been wondering about the AutoTune. From one perspective, a dyno tune is an entire fuel map based on a single event. A single snap shot of the time the bike was on the dyno. From another perspective, will the AutoTune continually adjust the dyno tune map to keep the bike running at its peak? Or will it negate ever getting the dyno tune in the first place?

I've also read that an AutoTune simply wipes away what the dyno tune did in the first place. So, I guess I'm still a bit confused as well. Would I be better off with a dyno to AND an AutoTune or just one or the other.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I still don't understand the A/F numbers in the trim tables. Where does it come from? How can I tell what the base map is set for? If I start with all 0's where does it come from?
 

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So let's say AT is installed on a bike with some mods. The PCV has a base map but there is popping. The AT is enables and base map is accepted. Over the course of 100 miles the trims are accepted. Does the popping go away?
It depends. There are other configuration options at play, and you don't necessarily allow the AT to tune all areas of the map. For example, in the 0% throttle column, other than idle rpm areas, do not let the auto tune make any adjustments. Also, in 2% and 5% columns I restrict how much fuel I allow it to take away. Also, inhibiting enleanment once fuel settings converge helps eliminate popping and backfiring. My bike rarely, if ever, backfires or pops with my PC-V because I don't just make blanket changes across the board.
 

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Thank you for this thread. I too have been wondering about the AutoTune. From one perspective, a dyno tune is an entire fuel map based on a single event. A single snap shot of the time the bike was on the dyno. From another perspective, will the AutoTune continually adjust the dyno tune map to keep the bike running at its peak? Or will it negate ever getting the dyno tune in the first place?

I've also read that an AutoTune simply wipes away what the dyno tune did in the first place. So, I guess I'm still a bit confused as well. Would I be better off with a dyno to AND an AutoTune or just one or the other.
The auto tune not only relegates a dyno tune as unnecessary, it continuously adapts to changing conditions. You do NOT need a dyno tune if you install the AT. You also do NOT need to start with a "map that is close". Starting from a "zero" map will be just fine. It doesn't take it long (maybe seconds or fractions of a second) to converge on the AFR targets you set. The default values allow up to %20 changes in fuel, but you can increase or decrease that. If a cell requires more than a %20 change, simply import the trim tables, and then you have another %20 percent. Theoretically, you can just leave your base map at all zeros and set your trim enrichment / enleanment from the default of 20% to 100% !! Then, you really wouldn't *have to* ever import trim tables as long as the AT unit is installed.

Anyone telling you that you have to start from some sort of tuned map either doesn't know what they're talking about, or is blowing smoke up your a$$.
 

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I still don't understand the A/F numbers in the trim tables. Where does it come from? How can I tell what the base map is set for? If I start with all 0's where does it come from?
You don't have the unit yet, or it would all make sense to you once you see it. But, in essence, the PC-V has a single "set" of tables that contain numerical values ranging from -100 to +100. The axis are percent throttle opening vs. rpm. The "maps" are essentially this table filled out with a bunch of values from another source, whether another bike that you copied from, a dyno session, or just hand entered.

The Auto tune has a table also based on rpm and throttle, but these are values set as an air fuel ratio. For example, some of the "default" maps come with all cells filled with the value 13.7, which means 13.7:1 air:fuel ratio. That is the target that the AT unit will try to reach in those cells, and yield the proper fuel value in its "trim tables", which aggregate with the PC-V map ( say +15) to arrive at that target AFR. The trim tables are merely these additions and subtractions. You can then "accept" ( ie. upload, import, etc), into your main PC-V table to make them autonomous from the AT unit. If you haven't seen the units, I think a few screen caps would probably explain it better.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You don't have the unit yet, or it would all make sense to you once you see it. But, in essence, the PC-V has a single "set" of tables that contain numerical values ranging from -100 to +100. The axis are percent throttle opening vs. rpm. The "maps" are essentially this table filled out with a bunch of values from another source, whether another bike that you copied from, a dyno session, or just hand entered.

The Auto tune has a table also based on rpm and throttle, but these are values set as an air fuel ratio. For example, some of the "default" maps come with all cells filled with the value 13.7, which means 13.7:1 air:fuel ratio. That is the target that the AT unit will try to reach in those cells, and yield the proper fuel value in its "trim tables", which aggregate with the PC-V map ( say +15) to arrive at that target AFR. The trim tables are merely these additions and subtractions. You can then "accept" ( ie. upload, import, etc), into your main PC-V table to make them autonomous from the AT unit. If you haven't seen the units, I think a few screen caps would probably explain it better.
Making sense. Install and enable the AT. Trim tables will populate itself with a value from the base map or the default 13.7 if no map exist. Now the AT adjust the values in the trim tables automatically based on the conditions (weather, elevation, driving style, etc.). Accept the trims occasionally so they can update the map in the PCV. Save the map occasionally to revert to if the AT start having issues. I am even close.

1. Why do some change the fuel/air ratio (13.3, 13.5, 13.9, etc.)?

2. What effect will that have on the bike?

3. Should I run the basic, cylinder advanced, gear advanced or cylinder and gear advanced?

4. Let's address popping. Let's say all 0's are in the 0% column but popping exists, how do you know which cell to manipulate?
 

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Making sense. Install and enable the AT. Trim tables will populate itself with a value from the base map or the default 13.7 if no map exist. Now the AT adjust the values in the trim tables automatically based on the conditions (weather, elevation, driving style, etc.). Accept the trims occasionally so they can update the map in the PCV. Save the map occasionally to revert to if the AT start having issues. I am even close.

1. Why do some change the fuel/air ratio (13.3, 13.5, 13.9, etc.)?

2. What effect will that have on the bike?

3. Should I run the basic, cylinder advanced, gear advanced or cylinder and gear advanced?

4. Let's address popping. Let's say all 0's are in the 0% column but popping exists, how do you know which cell to manipulate?
You are close enough, yes.

1. The "canned" AFR maps that come with some of the units tend to be a bit on the rich side for our bikes. They range from 13:1 to 13.7 to 1, which populates values in the tables that are a bit rich. Soooo... many of us lean those target AFR's out to let the trims converge on a leaner mixture. Some go leaner than I like. It's personal preference. You can pretty much feel the changes immediately when you ride the bike.

2. See above

3. When you get the unit, you will want to combine the cylinder AFR maps into one. No need having separate "target" AFR's for each cylinder. However, the trim and PC-V fuel maps will still be unique for each cylinder (advanced). You will not use the gear or maps. Also, while some may disagree, I would highly suggest NOT changing the timing using this unit. If you want to advance your timing, you are better off using Lloydz timing gear, because it does both ignition and fuel timing.

4. Trial and error. But I'll bet I can help you out over the phone in just a few minutes and get rid of almost all of it by imparting some lessons learned to you. The only cells I have filled out in the 0% column are at 750, 1000, and 1250rpm. And those values had to be leaned out by between 10 to 20 percent....
 

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Discussion Starter #13
But I'll bet I can help you out over the phone in just a few minutes and get rid of almost all of it by imparting some lessons learned to you. The only cells I have filled out in the 0% column are at 750, 1000, and 1250rpm. And those values had to be leaned out by between 10 to 20 percent....
Thanks. I will take you up on that. I have had the unit for almost a year now but never installed. However, I do have Lloydz touring cams, timing wheel (+4)l, IAV and air filter installed. I considered not installing because I just got cams installed and dyno by KMC but I am now considering Lloydz Hotrod exhaust as I make cosmetic changes to the bike and I currently average 3 pops per ride. It did not pop on the dyno which I don't understand.

I figured it would be cheaper if I just install the AT since I've had it to long to return anyway.
 

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Thanks. I will take you up on that. I have had the unit for almost a year now but never installed. However, I do have Lloydz touring cams, timing wheel (+4)l, IAV and air filter installed. I considered not installing because I just got cams installed and dyno by KMC but I am now considering Lloydz Hotrod exhaust as I make cosmetic changes to the bike and I currently average 3 pops per ride. It did not pop on the dyno which I don't understand.

I figured it would be cheaper if I just install the AT since I've had it to long to return anyway.
It didn't pop on the dyno, because contrary to what some people think, you don't ride your bike on the dyno. That's where real world, on the fly tuning shines.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Where did you mount the AT? What power source did you use? Where did your ground it?
 

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One thing I've been thinking about lately is that during a dyno session, why isn't a fan used? Maybe some shops do but I've not seen one used before.

I would think that the faster a bike is going, the more "off" a dyno tune would be since the increased air intake wasn't present when the bike was on the dyno. I think a fan producing an air speed of around 50 mph would be a good middle ground based on a window of 20-80 mph. Anything below 20 is too slow and we are usually not above 80 (the masses).

Maybe I'm full of it, thoughts?
 

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Where did you mount the AT? What power source did you use? Where did your ground it?
Mounted to the top of the PCV under the side cover. I forget what wire I used for power. There are some switched wires close by, find a shop manual and you can figure out which one it is. I tapped into the PCV ground wire with a posi-tap.
 

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Popping:
Most of my poping was eliminated with Lloyds IAC valve.
They also told me no to blip the throttle on downshifting.
And all this was before the AT, but after the air filter and
Cams

One Word of caution:
LEAN is Power, LEAN is Fast, LEAN is hot and LEAN is dangerous
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Popping:
Most of my poping was eliminated with Lloyds IAC valve.
They also told me no to blip the throttle on downshifting.
And all this was before the AT, but after the air filter and
Cams

One Word of caution:
LEAN is Power, LEAN is Fast, LEAN is hot and LEAN is dangerous
Are you running lean?
 

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Im running 13.7:1 for most of my cells.
with 4 deg adv ( said to add to leaness)

I wouldnt call it fat, but there is a tiny bit of soot in the pipe.
I doo need th check the plugs, they tell the story////
 
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