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I saw and sat on what could be the updated and refined CC and CCT today. I was all over the 2018 Yamaha Eluder today at a dealer in Seneca, NC on my way home. It's the silver one with the black and red accent stripes. I didn't ride it but I was able to sit on it, run through the electronics, open all the compartments and listen to it idle in the showroom. Another dealer I should be near tomorrow has the new Venture Trans Continental on their showroom floor.

First off, I am NOT in the market for a new motorcycle. My 2012 CCT is very safe for the foreseeable future. I'm not even done adding modifications to it. Perhaps the Revolution Performance 117" kit will be up and coming. But, only after a new drive belt, fork fluid flush and the installation of my Reverse Kit.

The Eluder, to me, looked really nice. I saw a lot of Victory Cross bike influence with things like the center ridge and the big boy floor boards. Even the fairing with its lowers seemed like it could have been on a drawing board somewhere with the Victory design team. The handlebars were adjusted way too close to the tank but otherwise the ergonomics fit me quite well. I'l 5'10.5' with a 31" inseam. The saddlebags are a bit smaller than they look somewhat due to the smaller opening compared to the exterior dimensions.

I'll fully admit to being biased in favor of the Cross bike styling as I love it and I'm so used to it. But seing these two bikes side by side, the Cross bikes have a 'cleaner' and a 'sleeker' look to them. The only nit I've ever had with the aesthetics of the Yamaha 113" engine is it has a lot of angles, nooks and crannies. Especially compared to the Victory 106". The saddlebag design of the Cross bikes is also a big plus with me with the open lid exposing the entire interior of the bag.

Before I bought my CCT I spent a bit of time on the Raider and Stratoliner forums. At the time, there were certainly companies offering mods to increase the power and torque of the 113". So I'd guess that part of the market will be growing with these two new models.

I asked but the dealer rep wasn't sure if the Venture trunk will be a quick on/off design like the CCT. I'll be glad to run these new bikes through a demo ride this year. But I will NOT be telling my wife the Venture has a heated backrest and passenger hand grips.

Maybe someday some actual drawings will be shown of what would/could have been the next generation of the Victory Cross bikes. Oh well, I'm glad a company like Yamaha saw fit to fill the gap of the MIA 2018 Cross bikes. I wish them all the best and hope they sell far better than their wildest dreams.

The dealer does have two late model Polaris Cheiftains in their used bike line up. One is the Dark version and the other a red/cream one.
 

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Looks great in person IMHO. But yes, the silver one is the one I was looking at today. Even the black and red stripes have a 'Magnum" theme to them.
 

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I think they did a great job on it. I only buy American motorcycles though, In ten years Ill be on an Indian, and HD might be shut down or based in Thailand. At least their days in Milwaukee might be over soon.
 

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I saw and sat on what could be the updated and refined CC and CCT today. I was all over the 2018 Yamaha Eluder today at a dealer in Seneca, NC on my way home. It's the silver one with the black and red accent stripes. I didn't ride it but I was able to sit on it, run through the electronics, open all the compartments and listen to it idle in the showroom. Another dealer I should be near tomorrow has the new Venture Trans Continental on their showroom floor.

First off, I am NOT in the market for a new motorcycle. My 2012 CCT is very safe for the foreseeable future. I'm not even done adding modifications to it. Perhaps the Revolution Performance 117" kit will be up and coming. But, only after a new drive belt, fork fluid flush and the installation of my Reverse Kit.

The Eluder, to me, looked really nice. I saw a lot of Victory Cross bike influence with things like the center ridge and the big boy floor boards. Even the fairing with its lowers seemed like it could have been on a drawing board somewhere with the Victory design team. The handlebars were adjusted way too close to the tank but otherwise the ergonomics fit me quite well. I'l 5'10.5' with a 31" inseam. The saddlebags are a bit smaller than they look somewhat due to the smaller opening compared to the exterior dimensions.

I'll fully admit to being biased in favor of the Cross bike styling as I love it and I'm so used to it. But seing these two bikes side by side, the Cross bikes have a 'cleaner' and a 'sleeker' look to them. The only nit I've ever had with the aesthetics of the Yamaha 113" engine is it has a lot of angles, nooks and crannies. Especially compared to the Victory 106". The saddlebag design of the Cross bikes is also a big plus with me with the open lid exposing the entire interior of the bag.

Before I bought my CCT I spent a bit of time on the Raider and Stratoliner forums. At the time, there were certainly companies offering mods to increase the power and torque of the 113". So I'd guess that part of the market will be growing with these two new models.

I asked but the dealer rep wasn't sure if the Venture trunk will be a quick on/off design like the CCT. I'll be glad to run these new bikes through a demo ride this year. But I will NOT be telling my wife the Venture has a heated backrest and passenger hand grips.

Maybe someday some actual drawings will be shown of what would/could have been the next generation of the Victory Cross bikes. Oh well, I'm glad a company like Yamaha saw fit to fill the gap of the MIA 2018 Cross bikes. I wish them all the best and hope they sell far better than their wildest dreams.

The dealer does have two late model Polaris Cheiftains in their used bike line up. One is the Dark version and the other a red/cream one.
I was all about these Yamahas when they were announced and after sitting on one at Americade last year, I thought the same as you do, they could be the spiritual successor to the Cross Country. That is until I started reading and watching the reviews....from all I've taken in, these Yamaha have a glaring weak spot and it is the engine. A slow, low rev-ing slug of a thing in these big, heavy bikes which kills any ideas I had about getting one. I thought the 111 Thunder Stroke was lack luster, the Yamaha 113 seems to be even worse. I don't care to ride an big lumbering couch, I need my touring bike to get up move its ass on demand.
 

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I think they did a great job on it. I only buy American motorcycles though, In ten years Ill be on an Indian, and HD might be shut down or based in Thailand. At least their days in Milwaukee might be over soon.
Harley is still selling 240k bikes a year. They may downsize to accommodate the demand but they aren't going anywhere.

The fact is big bikes are not that popular outside of the USA, Australia, and parts of Europe. The cost is prohibitive and the number of people wanting them is diminishing every year. Harley-D will adapt to the changing times. They are putting $200 million into their York, PA plant even as they shut down their Kansas City plant. Milwaukee is still alive and well with seasonal layoffs and hires as demand increase and slows. I think it was their original home so I wouldn't think they would ever close it unless they did indeed go out of business. Harley is as American as apple pie. Not going anywhere.

Starting in 2019 there will be an electric racing bike series. The old adage about race on Sunday sell on Monday still applies. Yes, there are some hurdles like miles per charge, but they will be solved.

I've been trying to figure out this new Millennial generation and Gen Z. They don't seem to have the same wants and desires as previous generations. Earthly possessions are not nearly as important and many have no desire to own a car let alone a motorcycle. In a capitalist system goods must be bought and sold but to do that there must be a market for them. If these generations decide they are cool with living in a tent taking a bus to a temporary job (if there is one) when they need the money; it could bring down the entire system. Homes will just be worthless crash pads. I dunno; the jury is still out while they too try to figure out what they are all about. Naturally I'm talking about the brain-washed progressive side of their population. The other half were/are raised better.

Some may plan on living on an overly large inheritance promised by parents and grandparents who were frugal so they could leave something they didn't get. Not sure this is a good thing if the younger gen just squanders it without giving back or putting anything into the system/community other than the bare essential shopping.

Needless to say; this is a complex question with no easy answers.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I can't imagine buying a Polaris Indian over an H-D at this point. Nothing in the current Polaris Indian line out does it's current H-D counterpart. Let Polaris take their Indian brand past 18 years and then, maybe, maybe, give them a look. Until then, no sir, no thank you, no thank you very much.

Like BBob says, if H-D goes out the entire motorcycle industry will already be gone. I have friends who have family that work(ed) at the KC plant. The 800 or so families directly impacted will be impacted hard. They need your support. They very likely wouldn't want to move to Milwaukee, WI from KC if that was even an option.

Relax, the world, and everything in and on it will one day be gone. We don't know when so plan like it will end in 100 years and live like it could be tomorrow. In the mean time, enjoy each day and what you have. But also work towards something better.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I was all about these Yamahas when they were announced and after sitting on one at Americade last year, I thought the same as you do, they could be the spiritual successor to the Cross Country. That is until I started reading and watching the reviews....from all I've taken in, these Yamaha have a glaring weak spot and it is the engine. A slow, low rev-ing slug of a thing in these big, heavy bikes which kills any ideas I had about getting one. I thought the 111 Thunder Stroke was lack luster, the Yamaha 113 seems to be even worse. I don't care to ride an big lumbering couch, I need my touring bike to get up move its ass on demand.

My first test ride on a box stock CCT returned similar thoughts. The 106" sounded and felt constricted and constipated. Thoughts of "How could such a 'big' engine perform so poorly" kept running through my head. Thankfully, the aftermarket stood ready, willing and able to supply supply intake, exhaust, cams and timing. I'd guess the same or similar is true for the Yamaha 113".

A very quick internet glance returned posts of 120" kits and cams with higher lift and longer duration etc. So yea, no matter where the 'big' engines start, the aftermarket seems ready willing and able to supply more power. I'd guess companies similar to Lloyds that work on kits for the Polaris products are also out their with parts and kits for the big Yamaha.

Another thing I noticed on the Eluder was the rear passenger floorboards. They had a very familiar (CCT) design for the rear passenger floorboards for height adjustment. I didn't check but maybe the rider floorboards can also move forward and back. I have no inside information on anything from Yamaha. But it does seem the engineers could have looked at the CC and the CCT as a starting point for how to design a modern and a successful bagger with a two up touring brother. Polaris killing off the Victory line may have been a huge surprise and gift to team Yamaha. I wish team Yamaha much success.
 

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Just a few years ago HD almost had to move from WI . As unbelievable as it sounds, management admitted it, they almost blew it. I have forgotten the details now but it happened. Less connections are being made in person is my take. More and more its on an app or computer. Plus kids and people starting out in a job, have less money. I won't be surprised if hd has to leave WI. Their ambitions to make more and more models sounds like the same bloated path GM had to deal with by cutting Olds and Pontiac. Too much is too much...too.

Their strategy to move some production to taiwan will help but not if they keep making mistakes. How much of that move will be meaningful to the customers OTD price for that new ride? How much money does a new bike generate in tshirt and accessory sales? When will the 20 something get a brake from HD? Maybe never.

Nike sales have dropped too. For the first time NIKE the high margin cadillac of American sneakers is finally taking a margin hit and discounting their overpriced shoes. When will hd see this kind of light? NEVER!
 

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Just a few years ago HD almost had to move from WI . As unbelievable as it sounds, management admitted it, they almost blew it. I have forgotten the details now but it happened. Less connections are being made in person is my take. More and more its on an app or computer. Plus kids and people starting out in a job, have less money. I won't be surprised if hd has to leave WI. Their ambitions to make more and more models sounds like the same bloated path GM had to deal with by cutting Olds and Pontiac. Too much is too much...too.

Their strategy to move some production to taiwan will help but not if they keep making mistakes. How much of that move will be meaningful to the customers OTD price for that new ride? How much money does a new bike generate in tshirt and accessory sales? When will the 20 something get a brake from HD? Maybe never.

Nike sales have dropped too. For the first time NIKE the high margin cadillac of American sneakers is finally taking a margin hit and discounting their overpriced shoes. When will hd see this kind of light? NEVER!
I don't disagree with your observations about current consumers but what do you mean by "HD almost ad o move from WI"? Do you mean their engine plant, their museum, their corporate HQ, all of the above? What does consumer demand and changes in attitude have to do, for example, with where HD has their corporate HQ?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't understand your point.

G'day,

Vinish
 

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I was all about these Yamahas when they were announced and after sitting on one at Americade last year, I thought the same as you do, they could be the spiritual successor to the Cross Country. That is until I started reading and watching the reviews....from all I've taken in, these Yamaha have a glaring weak spot and it is the engine. A slow, low rev-ing slug of a thing in these big, heavy bikes which kills any ideas I had about getting one. I thought the 111 Thunder Stroke was lack luster, the Yamaha 113 seems to be even worse. I don't care to ride an big lumbering couch, I need my touring bike to get up move its ass on demand.
I rode both the Yamaha Venture Continental and Indian Roadmaster at the motorcycle show last year. No comparison in the engine. The Yamaha was quite a bit stronger. Strong enough that I set the throttle input back to the "touring" mode because I wasn't used to the instant pull on such a large bike with my wife on the back in sport mode. With our Sena intercoms my wife and I chatted while riding both bikes an even she said the Yamaha felt stronger, way smoother and had a much more sophisticated ride. The fully loaded version was $5K less than the Indian.
 

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Harleys KC plant has closed many times over the past years. Nothing new. Am guessing thats where they will build their new electric bike. A few foreign countries all ready tells HD and polaris if you want to sell bikes there you have to build a plant so people can make money to buy one. Remember back in the hippie era they didn't buy bikes it was all about drugs music and free love.
I'm not a fan of all black motor and exhaust. I think you need chrome to set off the paint scheme. At what age does a bagger get to big and heavy for a guy to handle. The STAR ELUDER would be more my taste but am I at the age where 877 pounds is to much for me in a bad situation.
The more I read about guys checking out other models makes me wonder will they stay with Vic TTWFO
 

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I don't disagree with your observations about current consumers but what do you mean by "HD almost ad o move from WI"? Do you mean their engine plant, their museum, their corporate HQ, all of the above? What does consumer demand and changes in attitude have to do, for example, with where HD has their corporate HQ?

Vinish
No offence taken. I have my own reasons to criticize hd, some have cost me a lot of time and money, some are public and well know and some are private. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/after-107-years-will-harley-leave-milwaukee/ Time flys and things have not gotten better for them.

" What does consumer demand and changes in attitude have to do, for example, with where HD has their corporate HQ?"
I don't understand your question so we both get to go fish! :grin
 

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My first test ride on a box stock CCT returned similar thoughts. The 106" sounded and felt constricted and constipated. Thoughts of "How could such a 'big' engine perform so poorly" kept running through my head. Thankfully, the aftermarket stood ready, willing and able to supply supply intake, exhaust, cams and timing. I'd guess the same or similar is true for the Yamaha 113".

A very quick internet glance returned posts of 120" kits and cams with higher lift and longer duration etc. So yea, no matter where the 'big' engines start, the aftermarket seems ready willing and able to supply more power. I'd guess companies similar to Lloyds that work on kits for the Polaris products are also out their with parts and kits for the big Yamaha.

Another thing I noticed on the Eluder was the rear passenger floorboards. They had a very familiar (CCT) design for the rear passenger floorboards for height adjustment. I didn't check but maybe the rider floorboards can also move forward and back. I have no inside information on anything from Yamaha. But it does seem the engineers could have looked at the CC and the CCT as a starting point for how to design a modern and a successful bagger with a two up touring brother. Polaris killing off the Victory line may have been a huge surprise and gift to team Yamaha. I wish team Yamaha much success.
I rode both the Yamaha Venture Continental and Indian Roadmaster at the motorcycle show last year. No comparison in the engine. The Yamaha was quite a bit stronger. Strong enough that I set the throttle input back to the "touring" mode because I wasn't used to the instant pull on such a large bike with my wife on the back in sport mode. With our Sena intercoms my wife and I chatted while riding both bikes an even she said the Yamaha felt stronger, way smoother and had a much more sophisticated ride. The fully loaded version was $5K less than the Indian.
Alright...fair enough, my impressions and current opinions are not "real world"....I'm sure at some point I'll get to ride a Venture\Eluder, maybe a spin on the bike will change things for me.
 

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We have a red Venture here on the floor right now, at least till the roads clear up and the buyer can pick it up, but so far we have had a lot of parties looking at it.

We put it in the same row as our new Gold wings and so far all of them are seeing a lot of foot traffic. Even just people coming in to just see it in person and compare them, we don't have the Eluder yet but its suppose to be here very soon.
 
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