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Discussion Starter #1
Gang

Have a new to me 2011 XC Ness (with a factory stage 1) my understanding is the bike is from Arizona. On deceleration is runs rough and pops a bit. I have had 2 HD's which I have installed stage 1 & 2's and power commanders in and had dyno runs and mapping done on.

My question is should I have a Victory flash (Mapping) done, or should I have a dyno run and mapping done? Victory is new to me so I do not know if a power commander is available for it or recommended? Or perhaps another fuel manager?

Would appreciate some advice from more seasoned victory owners?

Thanks, Dez
 

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Just do a search, tons of threads on this topic. If you have stage 1 then you already have the Vic download.
 

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Just do a search, tons of threads on this topic. If you have stage 1 then you already have the Vic download.
Not necessarily. Pipes could have been installed without anyone doing the flash...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Flash or Dyno

Gents thanks for the comments.

The stage 1 on the Ness XC came as a standard factory upgrade. I suspect the altitude/oxygen differential has something to do with how it is running? Phoenix altitude is 1124 ft, where I am in Northern Canada it is 797 ft, and will be moving this summer to 786 ft. Nearest Victory Dealer/Dyno is at 2192 ft, so a dyno maping will be out of wack for my move early summer?

Don't know anything about Victory flashes, are they grouped to cover a range of enviromental conditions os is it like a dyno where they are individually mapped for the bike and conditions?

Thanks

Dez
 

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Gents thanks for the comments.
The stage 1 on the Ness XC came as a standard factory upgrade. I suspect the altitude/oxygen differential has something to do with how it is running? Phoenix altitude is 1124 ft, where I am in Northern Canada it is 797 ft, and will be moving this summer to 786 ft. Nearest Victory Dealer/Dyno is at 2192 ft, so a dyno maping will be out of wack for my move early summer?

Don't know anything about Victory flashes, are they grouped to cover a range of enviromental conditions os is it like a dyno where they are individually mapped for the bike and conditions?

Thanks
Dez
Welcome to the insanity! What # is your '11 XC? I believe the factory tuning relies on feedback from the O2 connectors and (I would think) that feedback loop would make altitude differences negligible but I could be wrong. I live @ 700ft elevation and have ridden up to Beech Mountain Ski Resort @ a height of 4,675 feet (during the summer) without any of the performance issues you are describing. You might want to simply run something like seafoam and/or Sta-Bil through your tank since you say it is new to you. If it's been sitting around for a year without being run, older/de-stabilized fuel may be your issue rather than the tune.

I also have a 2011 Ness XC but mine does not run rough AT ALL nor does it appear to pop or backfire (NEVER hear a BANG!). I saw that you stated that yours "came from the factory with Stage One" already installed/configured but that statement is contrary to what others have posted on these forums. Can I ask where you got that information from? The reason I ask is because I had thought (due to marketing literature at the time) that the Ness Bikes came from the factory with Stage One but dealers and other posters have contradicted that premise and I have not been able to find anyone within Victory (or my dealer) that was able to confirm that Stage One came on these bikes. Obviously, the existence or non-existence isn't a huge issue for me but I suspect that you could be correct & Stage One may well have came on these Ness XCs without the need for a dealer to add it on.

Here is why I think that mine (may have) Stage One...
1) My first dyno w/no mods/Stock(rubber weather strip still in place, etc) came in @ 83.59 Horse Power & 97.29 Torque (First graphic). However, other XC owners have reported as much as 5HP/7TQ lower on their (non-Ness) bikes. If mine did come with a Stage One, that may be the reason for the marginally higher dyno figures vs other non-Ness bikes. Up until this thread, I have simply been assuming that my bike may have simply had a better broken-in engine since everyone had previously argued that the Ness XC bikes did NOT come with Stage One from the factory (some 2 years ago).

2) This past fall, I had my dealer replace the stock Victory air filter with a Lloyd's high flow air filter with an awareness that I might need to get a different flash or obtain a tuner but you can see from the second dyno sheet below that the air/fuel ratio's came in well in-line without needing to make those changes. Perhaps the reason that occurred could be due to the fact that I may have already have had a Stage One flash and that could be why the tuner wasn't needed.

Any guidance/verification you could provide would be greatly appreciated! I suppose that it would be possible for a dealer to "read" the current flash on my bike but I am not certain their software has such 'reading' capabilities. I know that they can "re-write" a new flash but I would not want that. I would be interested in learning if reading the current flash is possible.

'11 Ness XC a month after purchase (100% stock)
Notes: Free Dyno with HP & Torque only (Smoothing 3)


'11 Ness XC with only Lloyd's Air Filter added (no tuner, no flash that I am aware of)
Notes: $25 Dyno providing HP & Air/Fuel ratio only (Smoothing 5)


PS - If you added your Stage One with your dealer then all the above may be irrelevant. However, the dealer I bought mine from DID get my bike from another dealer and one thing that may have happened on my bike could be that the original dealer DID add the Stage One option when they had it but that my selling dealer may not have been aware of it when they sold it to me. From a dealer point of view, I suspect that they had a cost (from the other dealer) that they needed to cover when they sold it to me. That original cost may have included a Stage One upfit without any documentation but since they were still able to make $'s on the 'flip', the details of any add on (like a dealer-delivered upgrade) may not have even have been documented.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the feedback.

My bike was also a flip, I bought it from a Dealer in Alberta Canada, who in turn buys 10 Vics a year (trade ins) from a dealer in Arizona. The Canadian dealer told me my XC had the stage 1, I believe I had read a motorcycle article that claimed that the Ness XC came with the stage 1 factory installed?

Quote: "Every new Victory gets a 106-inch Freedom V-Twin, too. The Cross bikes (Cross Roads and Cross Country) and Visions use the Stage 1 version, with claimed output of 92 hp and 109 ft.-lb. of torque." - Cycleworld article Aug 2010.

My experience has been as a HD owner installing with Power Commanders and having dyno mapping done - I was very satisfied with the outcome.

Have heard arguements that the Cobra is a better tuner than the PC - and now there are piggy backs for these that convert them to auto tuners? Sounds like a great deal to me in theory? figure PC's run around $300 and the Dyno & Mapping at $500, saw the Cobra auto tuner for $600...makes some sense to me as I move every 2-3 years to different regions (altitudes) across Canada every couple years, and I ride all over North America so my altitudes can very greatly on a single trip.

Would love to hear from someone who has installed an auto tuner in their XC...how's it working? How difficult was it to install (haven't seen a Cobra advertised for the Vic XC)? The PC in my HD's was a plug and play. Would they recommend the auto tuner over a flash or dyno map?

One of the joys of falling in love with a new ride...you have the A#$ pain of getting it kitted out similar to your previous ride (of course each time trying to enhancing the last).

Was love at first sight when I saw the XC, and bought the Ness sight unseen, in fact I didn't even test rode it, started it and drove it up onto the trailer and off I went.
 

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My bike was also a flip, I bought it from a Dealer in Alberta Canada, who in turn buys 10 Vics a year (trade ins) from a dealer in Arizona.
Mine was a zero miles flip (well, it actually had 3 miles on it) but it sounds like yours was used so your prior owner probably added the Stage One when he originally bought it from his dealer. How many miles did it have on it when you picked it up? I'd also be interested in learning what kind of price you paid for it (privately) so that I can get a good idea of what mine is worth these days... not that I'd ever sell mine.

...I believe I had read a motorcycle article that claimed that the Ness XC came with the stage 1 factory installed?

Quote: "Every new Victory gets a 106-inch Freedom V-Twin, too. The Cross bikes (Cross Roads and Cross Country) and Visions use the Stage 1 version, with claimed output of 92 hp and 109 ft.-lb. of torque." - Cycleworld article Aug 2010.
I think that quote is mis-leading as it is stating that ALL Visions & CRoss bikes got the stage one but we already know that is not accurate. It was also in error with regards to the HP/Torque numbers on these baggers. Those 92/109 figures were for the CRUISER bikes that came stock with a "hotter" CAM (Hammers, Jackpots, etc).

My experience has been as a HD owner installing with Power Commanders and having dyno mapping done - I was very satisfied with the outcome.
The Power Commander WILL help improve even a stock Victory so they are the best choice. They can be acquired under $300 so they are reasonably priced as well. Some even opt for the additional Auto-Tune unit which is another $300 as using it eliminates the need for a Dyno. The one caveat is that the Dyno may give a slightly better "static" tune that the auto tune would be capable of. The plus side is that the auto tune is more dynamic and will automatically adjust your bike whenever you make incremental changes thereby removing the cost of additional Dyno's. There is a complete review of VFC-3 vs. the Power Commander V over at "THE Victory Owners Group site" (Use the capital letters with WWW)

Have heard arguments that the Cobra is a better tuner than the PC ...
Not certain where you read that as the majority of Victory reviews have placed the new cobra's alongside the lower-cost/legacy-proven VFC-III's. In short, the cobra might be good for other metric bikes but they haven't enough experience with the Victory bikes to warrant the premium they charge over the time-proven Lloyd VFC3s. Here is that cobra review that includes buyers of the Cobra who had prior experience with other CObra products on other bikes but in the end may have even have shipped back the Victory version. Caution - You will want to read the first 51 pages to get the idea of of who tested what and how they came to their conclusions just plan to have a few beers ready for the long read...Posts #s 292 & 504 if you want to "cut to the chase" http://www.victoryforums.com/showthread.php?t=12781

Would love to hear from someone who has installed an auto tuner in their XC...how's it working?...The PC in my HD's was a plug and play. Would they recommend the auto tuner over a flash or dyno map?
Based on others comments, you may not even need an auto tuner. You may only need the Lloyd's IAV (see post # 592 in the above thread for how it works to remove the popping). However, it appears that most all these tuners are pretty easy to install on the Vic bikes. The PC-V autotuner is close to plug & play but there are still a few wire cuts and battery terminations (If I read correctly)

Consider adding your Ness production number (Cory's signature plate) to your signature on this forum so we know which "lady" you are riding (like I did with my Nessie, #120 below) and that way you won't have to post it when asking details in other threads.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
My Ness is #46, it has 30000 Km on it (which seemed high for a bike that was 1 yr old when I bought it)? But I put 85000 Km on my Glide before I traded it in on my Road King.

Looks like I now have a lot of reading to do? Having spent the cash for PC's and the dyno runs on top of that I like the concept of auto tuning if it is avail and works anywhere near as well as they sound?
 

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My Ness is #46, it has 30000 Km on it (which seemed high for a bike that was 1 yr old when I bought it)? But I put 85000 Km on my Glide before I traded it in on my Road King.

Looks like I now have a lot of reading to do? Having spent the cash for PC's and the dyno runs on top of that I like the concept of auto tuning if it is avail and works anywhere near as well as they sound?
There was an a(attempted) group buy for a PC-V & auto tune combo from one of the forum sponsors here (something like $584 for both parts) here but it looks like it fizzled out...
http://www.victoryforums.com/showthread.php?t=15337
 

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Is the auto tuner programmable for the PC-V?

If I am going to get any tuner, it's going to be a wide band tuner.

I've been bugging Zippers to make a Thundermax for the Victory engine. They said they are thinking about it. The difference is; the PC-V is an add-on tuner to the stock ECU and the Thundermax is a replacement.
 

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Is the auto tuner programmable for the PC-V?

If I am going to get any tuner, it's going to be a wide band tuner.

I've been bugging Zippers to make a Thundermax for the Victory engine. They said they are thinking about it. The difference is; the PC-V is an add-on tuner to the stock ECU and the Thundermax is a replacement.
I've read almost every tuning thread on every Victory forum I could find and never heard of Zippers Thundermax. But I do have to ask the obvious question, "Wouldn't doing a replacement be a LOT more expensive than the piggy-back approach that all Victory tuners have utilized so far?"

The one thing you do have with Power Commander's is that they have been on the market for a long time so they are a well understood tuning option for not only Victory but other bikes as well. You can also easily return your bike to factory vs. having to replace the entire unit.
 

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Is the auto tuner programmable for the PC-V?

If I am going to get any tuner, it's going to be a wide band tuner.

I've been bugging Zippers to make a Thundermax for the Victory engine. They said they are thinking about it. The difference is; the PC-V is an add-on tuner to the stock ECU and the Thundermax is a replacement.
I've read almost every tuning thread on every Victory forum I could find and never heard of Zippers Thundermax. But I do have to ask the obvious question, "Wouldn't doing a replacement be a LOT more expensive than the piggy-back approach that all Victory tuners have utilized so far?"

The one thing you do have with Power Commander's is that they have been on the market for a long time so they are a well understood tuning option for not only Victory but other bikes as well. You can also easily return your bike to factory vs. having to replace the entire unit.
Thundermax has been around since 1999. I have one on my Road King. It hasn't skipped a beat since I put it on 5 years ago. The bike has had different engine work 2 times (cams and jugs) and the Thundermax just tunes it all over again. You can also alter the programming with a computer to make it even better.

I had the PCll and PClll on my old Harley. The PC lies to the factory ECU to get what it wants. It works that way, but slows down the tuning process.

The Thundermax for HD is about what a PC-V and auto-tuner cost. Just unplug the old ECU and plug in the Thundermax, install a basic map for the build you have from the internet and ride.
 

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I had the PCll and PClll on my old Harley. The PC lies to the factory ECU to get what it wants. It works that way, but slows down the tuning process.

The Thundermax for HD is about what a PC-V and auto-tuner cost. Just unplug the old ECU and plug in the Thundermax, install a basic map for the build you have from the internet and ride.
If the Thundermax is the same cost as the PC5+autotune combo, I doubt they would get much business over the Power Commander incumbent. Now, if they came out with a unit that could auto tune (reliably) for under $500 then I would agree, bring it on! but at the same costs, I would expect that 95% of the potential buyers would stick with the Power Commander.

PS - It looks like the Thundermax is 20% more expensive than the PC alternative. The cheapest I saw for the H-D was around $749 & it retailed for $899. In contrast, there was a group here trying to put together a group buy for the PC5/Auto Tune combo for as little as $584 so it looks (based on these details) that it would be a more expensive solution than what's already out there. That may be one of the reasons they haven't yet offered an alternative for our bikes. A smaller market and lower margins might prevent us from finding an alternative.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Gents

Leaning towards the Cobra Fi2000R Powrpro Auto Tuner; I can get with shipping for $505. The Cobra auto tuner comes in a single box. I downloaded the installation instruction and it is a very simple plug n play (no splicing). In contrast the Power Commanders is $650 with shipping, and is in 2 boxes (Power Commander in one, auto tune in another).

In the past I have had 2 Power Commanders in 2 HD's and was quite happy with them, but the auto tune wasn't avail at the time, adding the Dyno and mapping brought the cost up to just under $900. The Bikes always ran really well afterwards.

Sure the Cobra for the Victory is new, yet all the feedback I have found from metric bikie users of Cobra auto tuners has been nothing but positive?

Since I ride all over across North American and move every 2-3 years I need the benefit of autotuning to match the changes in altitude and climatic conditions. Auto tune is a bit of a no brainer to me...even if the performance is not as sharp as the dyno runs might produce? ...I am not racing the 1/4 mile, I just like to eliminate the popping and backfiring that comes with the change in altitude (O2) levels.

Thoughts?
 

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Gents

Leaning towards the Cobra Fi2000R Powrpro Auto Tuner; I can get with shipping for $505. The Cobra auto tuner comes in a single box. I downloaded the installation instruction and it is a very simple plug n play (no splicing). In contrast the Power Commanders is $650 with shipping, and is in 2 boxes (Power Commander in one, auto tune in another).

In the past I have had 2 Power Commanders in 2 HD's and was quite happy with them, but the auto tune wasn't avail at the time, adding the Dyno and mapping brought the cost up to just under $900. The Bikes always ran really well afterwards.

Sure the Cobra for the Victory is new, yet all the feedback I have found from metric bikie users of Cobra auto tuners has been nothing but positive?

Since I ride all over across North American and move every 2-3 years I need the benefit of autotuning to match the changes in altitude and climatic conditions. Auto tune is a bit of a no brainer to me...even if the performance is not as sharp as the dyno runs might produce? ...I am not racing the 1/4 mile, I just like to eliminate the popping and backfiring that comes with the change in altitude (O2) levels.

Thoughts?
It's your money but can you REALLY say that you believe that the Cobra is worth that $505 when you could buy the Lloyds VFC-III for around $200 that does the EXACT same thing as the Cobra after you read the link to the 61 entry thread I provided in my earlier post where we learned that the "auto tune" by Cobra didn't really do anything? Or did I mis-read that thread?

I can understand the desire to have an autotune rather than a dyno but it doesn't look like the Cobra provides that function (in the Victorys) or perhaps you didn't read my reference? In that case, I pulled the excerpts and listed them below.
http://www.victoryforums.com/showthread.php?t=12781

Quotes in the thread:
504 - "I have seen the Cobra on Amazon for $460. It does not 'tune' in the literal sense, although you might have some adjustment on the one "pot" inside" [half_crazy]

292 - "In wide open throttle tests the Cobra did manage to richen the bike into the high 11:1 to mid 12:1 range (way rich) which may be why some of you notice some differences in the way to runs. So yes, the Cobra is working, but is is doing $450-$600(list) worth of work?! Ummm no! A Lloydz VFCIII can do the same thing for $275 list. Or if you want, a PC will do WAY better for maybe $100 more than the Cobra" [VicBuilder]
 

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It's your money but can you REALLY say that you believe that the Cobra is worth that $505 when you could buy the Lloyds VFC-III for around $200 that does the EXACT same thing as the Cobra after you read the link to the 61 entry thread I provided in my earlier post where we learned that the "auto tune" by Cobra didn't really do anything? Or did I mis-read that thread?
http://www.victoryforums.com/showthread.php?t=12781
I think you must have misread it. There are plenty of folks with various bikes who've use the Cobra and been happy with their results.

What KevinX was saying is that it didn't require a crank position sensor to measure acceleration as it could determine that from the fuel injection pulse widths. As I understand it, the Cobras auto tune for the best acceleration based on those pulses. Conventional tuners (auto or otherwise) try to control the fuel air mix to some predetermined level found by a dyno to be optimal for power production. Both are essentially doing the same thing, they are just using different inputs to make their decisions.
 

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I think you must have misread it. There are plenty of folks with various bikes who've use the Cobra and been happy with their results.

What KevinX was saying is that it didn't require a crank position sensor to measure acceleration as it could determine that from the fuel injection pulse widths. As I understand it, the Cobras auto tune for the best acceleration based on those pulses. Conventional tuners (auto or otherwise) try to control the fuel air mix to some predetermined level found by a dyno to be optimal for power production. Both are essentially doing the same thing, they are just using different inputs to make their decisions.
Perhaps I mis-read it but the excerpts I referenced showed a closer parallel with the VFC-III than with an auto tune and they weren't by Kevin X but I'll dig around in that thread again as I am getting closer to making a decision on a tuner myself (between the VFC or PC5).
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I Googled the Lloydz VFCIII and from what I found, it is not an autotuner (unless I missed something)? The Lloydz VFCIII I found listed for $275 US (plus shipping). Add to that the $500 for a Dyno run and mapping and I am up to $775, and have to remap with each altitude change each time I move?

Power Commander V with auto tuner is $650 with shipping.

Cobra Fi2000R PowerPro with auto tuner = $505 with shipping.

In the end I think with the changes in altitudes I meet both riding and moving an auto tune is the right way for me to go?

If someone knows where I can find the Lloydz with an auto turner would appreciate being pointed in that direction.
 
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