This isn't on my to do list. Kind of a cave to getting old and being less reactionary to gummint fiddling with my stuff. I would have gutted the pipes on GP not too many years ago.

Anyway, there is conflicting webnoise and I am confused. You seem to enjoy benefits but for every happy camper there is a doom and gloom story to go with cat removal.

Empirical data dammit!
What were the before numbers?
What are the numbers after?

Not you Squatch. Not your job to dump cash on analytics for the rest of us. There are guys with gear in the bay who do know the answer though. It would be good to see the data.

My gut is that it's a balancing act. There is a benefit to back pressure that you lose although it can be made up downstream. The further downstream the more heat dissipation but the more waste gases too.

Anyway, the numbers are out there.

Bueller? Bueller!

 

This isn't on my to do list. Kind of a cave to getting old and being less reactionary to gummint fiddling with my stuff. I would have gutted the pipes on GP not too many years ago.

Anyway, there is conflicting webnoise and I am confused. You seem to enjoy benefits but for every happy camper there is a doom and gloom story to go with cat removal.

Empirical data dammit!
What were the before numbers?
What are the numbers after?

Not you Squatch. Not your job to dump cash on analytics for the rest of us. There are guys with gear in the bay who do know the answer though. It would be good to see the data.

My gut is that it's a balancing act. There is a benefit to back pressure that you lose although it can be made up downstream. The further downstream the more heat dissipation but the more waste gases too.

Anyway, the numbers are out there.

Bueller? Bueller!

There is never under any circumstance an instant where you want back pressure being caused by an exhaust. Anytime you can remove an obstruction like catalytic converters you are going to help the motor out, though you might need a tune to recognize the benefits.

 

Nice Write up for Removal I just went with Freedom True Duals myself to eliminate the CAT.. Also added a Lloyds Air Filter and Had it Tuned with a PCV .. Will let the Numbers Speak for theirselves .. Can't wait to see what adding Cams does ..

 

Nice Write up for Removal I just went with Freedom True Duals myself to eliminate the CAT.. Also added a Lloyds Air Filter and Had it Tuned with a PCV .. Will let the Numbers Speak for theirselves .. Can't wait to see what adding Cams does ..


Thanks for posting a dyno with the Freedom pipes. I don't see a timing advance in your list of mods so I'll ask if you have one installed. If not I think that it would do wonders to bring that higher peak tq back to the left several hundred rpm even to the stock head pipe and then remain higher throughout the duration. BTW, I think the new touring cams would pull some serious HP out of the duals. The tq seems to be moved higher into the rev duration with them but, with the advance gear you should still be g2g when highway cruising.

Love the pipes. DO you ride two up much? if so how is the left side pipe with a passenger on the bike? Does it present any real hazard when mounting, dismounting, or even just to the soles of the shoes boots when riding? Thanks

 

How much of a difference was their in the sound level? Are you still running the stock muffler?

I just did the thrush mod to mine and it is a bit louder but still fairly quiet. I am thinking getting rid of the cats might give me a bit more sound.

 

PS, I'll send some fuel number this weekend. Making a run with Half Crazy..... hum... oh well we will see what shows up.


Numbers and analysis is good but the end of the day ya need to drive it to fine tune it.

Cheers

 

Lloydz Kevinx Ryan
all smart then any of us when it comes to the Vic motor.
Do you agree?
So why do the three of them say leave the "cats" in?
Now think of this you have a programed ECM in your bike that controls every thing and is designed to have "cats" in the exhaust.
Now you have no "cats" and expect the ECM to work proper.
ECM and motors are designed to run and perform at a certain temperature.
The ECM controls are bikes at sea level or pikes peak to run perfect now you have taken away the "cats" and expect it to run perfect all the time.
Sorry its going to run ok but it will not perform as good as the bikes that have them in it.
You get better gas millage so now you have leaned it out more. So now your going to buy a fuel controller to make it run richer cause you leaned it out to much.
You guys make me laugh your sitting on a engine that produce heat to run so yes your leg gets warm what do you expect. You park it in the garage and the pipes making cooling off noise so you spend a day trying to take the noise away.

 

I agree with you if the motor is left untuned after the removal, but if you tune for no cats I can not see any reason why the whole system would not be more efficient. Perhaps these are some good high flow cats though and the difference between leaving them and taken them out is negligible. All I know is if mine was going on a dyno for a custom tune I would take them out for sure.

 

You have a good point there Identical Dyno's with just the CAT's removed.. Can't help you there as Changed the Whole Exhaust System without CAT's ... Although it was a far better Dyno than the Bone Stock Dyno for the few that said I would lose power and torque ..

 

If your new pipes were designed with proper geometries to optimize operation, then it stands to reason that they may well be an improvement over the stock Vic exhausts. Keep in mind that Vic designers are constrained by emissions and noise requirements and may not be able to optimize the pipes for max power.

And I'll add that it may well turn out that the stock pipes do make more power without the cats.

All I'm saying is that blanket assertions based on "back pressure" and other laymen terms is rather meaningless.

 

Well, this layman is sticking with backpressure as an aid to bottom end grunt.

You put tuned straights on and go all the way to the limiter and you are going to reap rewards that you won't get with forced reversion. But down low where I want to build some muscle in this kind of geometry, it is not my enemy. I want grunt at every light. I have yet to tap the limiter. Not that I won't ever but I won't today.

That said, Victory didn't put cats in to help Pop jump the shark. Further, there's plenty of productive ways to get bottom without a restrictive exhaust. I just don't see the margin for my grandpa ride. This is one bike I'm not going to do the dance of a thousand pipes with looking for the sweet spot. (This ain't the first time I said that but I was lying all them other times and this time I am not... most likely.)

The heat thing that's got Squatch worked up is a consideration that could change my mind. If my body is uncomfortably hot I'm liable to look to solve that issue. Clearing the pipes definitely one way to skin that... uhh... cat. The flip side is when you open your pipes to cool down your exhaust you slow down it's ability to move gases. I like my gases moved. Just saying.

I'm not running a rail, or even HC's Kingpin. No doubt tuned straights at the christmas tree. The only thing pipes do for you in a top end run is keep the fire off your peepee.

I'll keep my cats for now anyway. Hell, this is the first bike I ever had with them. I got my nose more out of joint about the plastic on this thing than the platinum in it.

 

Well, this layman is sticking with backpressure as an aid to bottom end grunt.

You put tuned straights on and go all the way to the limiter and you are going to reap rewards that you won't get with forced reversion. But down low where I want to build some muscle in this kind of geometry, it is not my enemy. I want grunt at every light. I have yet to tap the limiter. Not that I won't ever but I won't today.

This guy, while rather long winded, eventually gets around to discussing this.

 

Ride two,

Comfirms what I felt in Ride one.
1) bike is cooler exhaust heat is greatly reduced.
2) Bike rev's easier...
3) exhaust note is unchanged with stock pipes.
4) motor is quieter.

Not rocket science just good old seat of the pants reporting.

Something else, bike pulls 6th gear a bit easier now too. slow roll from 1800 rpms pulls nicely all the way to 3000... oh wait blue lights ...

 

Squatch
Now if all motorcycles and cars had no CATS what air would your kids breath.
But of coarse you know that the hotter cats get the better they work and the more they provide for the motor.
You say a cooler running motor will last longer so why not put a fan on it to cool the motor when your sitting at a stop an go light or when you idling in your drive way.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink

 

VJ,
A discussion on the most worthless agency in the government will get very messy.

If your worried about the environment you would not be riding on or in an internal combustion powered vehicle. May be an electric bike next? still an environmental issue.

Trying to share something that worked for me. It works for me, you don't have to like it or make sense of it. Enjoy your posts I am done.

 

Bro, you don't need to be done posting. I'm with you on removing the Catalytic converters. I think it's a great move to eliminate the cats to cut the heat on the rider. thumb up

Not trying to start a flaming war, but most people seem to just ignore VJ as he is rather opinionated and usually his grammar is so atrocious that no one understands anyway.

If I could get away with it I would eliminate the cats on my Xterra and put on Long tube headers and a secondary cat delete pipe. If everyone was truly as worried about the environment as they claim the aftermarket for all internal combustion engines would dry up pretty quick.

 

While this article focuses on harley exhausts it is really an overall explanation of how and why exhausts actually work. It's a bit long for some people but worth a few minutes for some knowledge.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/exhausttech.htm

 

If everyone was truly as worried about the environment as they claim the aftermarket for all internal combustion engines would dry up pretty quick.

That's like saying "if everyone was truly worried about their health, they'd eat nothing but tofu and parsley."

Ask the people who used to be able to chew the air in LA if emissions controls have improved the situation.

That said, the few bikes on the road really aren't going to change matters much and the heat they generate is a far bigger deal for us than for people encased in a rolling box.

While this article focuses on harley exhausts it is really an overall explanation of how and why exhausts actually work. It's a bit long for some people but worth a few minutes for some knowledge.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/exhausttech.htm

Excellent article. thumb up

 

Point taken about the pollution, Saddlebag, point taken.


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Man, every time I think I've got some handle on how to make the performance I want from the 106, a thread like this comes up and basically rewrites what I thought I understood.

That's okay, tho. It's a learning process, and I like knowing things.

 

One of my favorite quips from a past engineering professor:

"Live and learn, die and forget it all."

 

If Lloyd could come up with some exhausts like these for Vics I think many people would jump right on board if for no other reason than his name on it.

2-1
http://www.fuelmotousa.com/harley/exhaust/fm-07-flh-fm-07-flh-b.html

2-2
http://www.fuelmotousa.com/harley/exhaust/jackpot-xxx-hi-output-head-pipe.html

 

I read all four pages of this......

Today I washed my very stock CrossRoads, it looks nice. Tomorrow I'm going to ride it all over the place in our HOT So. Calif. weather... it's so nice not to think about all that stuff in the preceeding four pages, ahhhhhh.

Now for you wrenchy types, it's a cool hobby to do such fiddling, if you've got some extra $$$$$ to burn (waste), and the knowhow, but I read such topics just so I realize how nice it is buying the motorcycle, riding the motorcycle, and occassionally washing the motorcycle... with all the other BS left out, ahhhhh.

 

I realize how nice it is buying the motorcycle, riding the motorcycle, and occassionally washing the motorcycle... with all the other BS left out, ahhhhh.

Yeah, but some of the adventure is in experiencing the thrill and agony of the BS. Besides, how am I ever gonna get the blonde to blow me if you have a more impressive dyno plot?

 

Been there and done that with 14 HD's and various other exotic or underpowered motors.
I guess I have finally reached the point of not wanting to Molest my new MC - I am very happy with the character of the 12 106 motor, the stock sound of the pipes under power and throttle response. Pipes could always be a little louder..

I have come to the personal realization that making upgrades is a never ending carrot chase that always involves yet one more domino....Each to their own... :^) Sometimes how it comes is plenty good enough, just like my new 38 snubbie revolver.

 

I was not disappointed with my Vic Bone Stock Rode it almost 2,000 miles before changing anything .. The Mods I have done were after doing a lot of checking around and researching what is right for me and quite pleased with it as money well spent ...

 

Here's a quote.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”

That's some of the magic in riding. Two identical machines parked side by each and each owner sees something entirely different when he looks at his.

Here's another quote paraphrased

"You want the perfect motorcycle? That's easy. Just become perfect and then make a motorcycle."

 

Here's a quote.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”

That's some of the magic in riding. Two identical machines parked side by each and each owner sees something entirely different when he looks at his.

I concur.

cheerscheers

 

You see where Jesus was crucified?


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Just the Cross part of it in my tank's paint job.

 

Far from perfect, ( me that is) but the bike is. little ride two up this last weekend chasing the angery bitch. We kept up pretty well but it was not a race just a little 425 mile ride with interstate and back country roads hills and twisties.

So for 400+ miles two up running anywhere from 30-75mph the bike performed very well. fuel mileage was about the same as stock maybe a tad better. Big change is heat. I was not roasting the boyz and my lovely passenger was quite comfortable. Fact, HC was asking about the vents, yes still closed did not need to open them beacuse I was comfortable. Air temps ranged from 50 to 70 degrees and towards the end of the ride I have my leather jacket off.

Again as I said to begin with my goal was to remove the excessive heat, not build bigger HP numbers. The Bike is quiet and comfortable. I did not notice much if any lack of performance and I still run pump gas.

Just a shade tree report on a heat problem. do your own research and add some common sense.

Cheers

 

Saddlebag,
I chased the Angry Bitch all day that day. Pretty impressive machine. Cruise it is quiet and clean, power is amazing just effortlessly runs down the road. There is a bit of a bark that echos in your chest when he opens it up.

 

Craig's bike is quiet too. Has a rumble when he's in the throttle, but like stock at idle/cruise. You might even like that mod.

 

Let me run this setup for the year, and then we'll talk mods.

Did my numbers works out to 42.5 mpg... bit lower than your 48 but then again I had that sexy thing on the back and all that fairing. I think the fairing is the culprit, well that my story and I am sticking to it.

 

I don't know what it is. All them bikes I end up with, none of them ever get 40 mpg. Fairing or no. Carb or FI.
This Vic I don't think the averageomometer goes past 38. Must be broke.
Seems like I go through rubber pretty quick too. Thank gawd for EBay. And floorboards. Nobody talks about the lifespan of a floorboard but I got one word for them, consumable commodity.
I read somewhere that some folks are having a clutch last the life of the bike. Boy, news to Pop for sure.
I don't get it.

 

I don't know what it is. All them bikes I end up with, none of them ever get 40 mpg.

It's obvious that you don't use the latest Amsoil belt lube formulation. It uses a super secret slippery sauce that will extend the life of the engine, grow hair on your chest, and protect floorboards all for one low low price.

 

Not concerned that much about MPG unless is low enough to be a problem I have a Heavy Throttle Hand and Enjoy the Power .. If want good Gas Mileage will get a Suzuki Bergman 650 and still have Interstate Speed Power and mileage to boot ..

 

Pulled them ...

Yo Squatch !
Spent a few hours this weekend and pulled those suckers out . Right side no problem came out after drilling a few holes and pulled out with needle nose vise grips . Took a expandable magnet and cleaned up the remaining pieces. Looking further into he pipe you can see the "snorkel pipe for the left side . That little pipe inside plus the bend over the filter gives you plenty of back pressure .
Left side was a little harder , had more dimples holding the Cat in place, on the exterior of the pipe.I had to drill out all the material (honeycomb ) in order to get the sleeve out. Used the magnet and cleaned up.
Reinstalled my Ness Big Honkers and took it out for a 15 mile spin . No bags ,no shields ,no exhaust cones. Just the pipes by themselves.
Throttle response much ,much quicker . Pulled the same on the few small hills on the short trip. Came back pulled both the mufflers again and sanded down the rust spots and painted the pipes with engine paint . Two cans worth of coating both pipes . Reinstalled mufflers and heat synced the pipes for an hour, after they were fully dried.
Today (Monday 27 th) I put all the shields and instead the cones. Took the wife and met two buddies for breakfast . We went 75 miles two up and the bike just goes that much better . My buds say its a little louder than before . They both ride HD Ultras and I always walk away from them , now even more.
The bottom line this bike performs even better now than before , runs quicker / cooler and for no real money well worth the time.
Cross Country Tour. 2012. LLoyds cams / filter / Ness Pipes , all installed by Lloyd's last year at the 1800 miles.
Dyno stock 77.10 HP. Torque 90.38
Dyno after 103.71. HP Torque 107.25
Will set up new Dyno run locally for results after Cats out...
thumb up

 

Yo Squatch !
Spent a few hours this weekend and pulled those suckers out . Right side no problem came out after drilling a few holes and pulled out with needle nose vise grips . Took a expandable magnet and cleaned up the remaining pieces. Looking further into he pipe you can see the "snorkel pipe for the left side . That little pipe inside plus the bend over the filter gives you plenty of back pressure .
Left side was a little harder , had more dimples holding the Cat in place, on the exterior of the pipe.I had to drill out all the material (honeycomb ) in order to get the sleeve out. Used the magnet and cleaned up.
Reinstalled my Ness Big Honkers and took it out for a 15 mile spin . No bags ,no shields ,no exhaust cones. Just the pipes by themselves.
Throttle response much ,much quicker . Pulled the same on the few small hills on the short trip. Came back pulled both the mufflers again and sanded down the rust spots and painted the pipes with engine paint . Two cans worth of coating both pipes . Reinstalled mufflers and heat synced the pipes for an hour, after they were fully dried.
Today (Monday 27 th) I put all the shields and instead the cones. Took the wife and met two buddies for breakfast . We went 75 miles two up and the bike just goes that much better . My buds say its a little louder than before . They both ride HD Ultras and I always walk away from them , now even more.
The bottom line this bike performs even better now than before , runs quicker / cooler and for no real money well worth the time.
Cross Country Tour. 2012. LLoyds cams / filter / Ness Pipes , all installed by Lloyd's last year at the 1800 miles.
Dyno stock 77.10 HP. Torque 90.38
Dyno after 103.71. HP Torque 107.25
Will set up new Dyno run locally for results after Cats out...
thumb up

Glad it worked for you sir, just got off a 1000 mile weekend. Glad I pulled the cat, no heat issues or performance issues. average for the trip 42.7mpg.

Cheers